Why civilization itself is unsustainable

Bikewer said:
A nice, sustainable population of hunter-gatherers living in harmony with nature in the more temperate areas of the planet would likely be very nice.
Any idea what to do with the billions of excess human beings?
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TFian expects them to die.

Curiously, unlike many similar doom prophets, he expects to end up among the dead. Or at least he said so a few times.
 
Bikewer said:
A nice, sustainable population of hunter-gatherers living in harmony with nature in the more temperate areas of the planet would likely be very nice.
Any idea what to do with the billions of excess human beings?
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The hunter-gatherers need to hunt something, so until the big game animals come back, it will be long pork on the campfire.
 
There exist many such societies, with an average lifespan of 30-something years and all the horrific suffering that comes with a life without access to modern health care. They're supposedly somehow as happy as us, but I wouldn't want to live with them.
 
Suddenly said:
Eh. Civ 5 is unsustainable on a huge Earth map because at some point your population overtakes the happiness metric and things go to hell.
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Maybe they could include a wonder that allows you to decrease your own population without it getting unhappy. Call it "Planned Parenthood".

:duck:
 
Mark6 said:
Yes, TFian has been beating this drum for years -- and ignoring all arguments to the contrary. I put him on "Ignore" long time ago.
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Yet you keep responding to my threads. Weird.
 
Mark6 said:
TFian expects them to die.

Curiously, unlike many similar doom prophets, he expects to end up among the dead. Or at least he said so a few times.
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Well there's never any guarantees in life, and I'm as mortal as anyone else, so I don't see why I should bargain that I'll survive the fatal circumstances that will befall most people in the world in the next coming few decades.
 
Bikewer said:
Any idea what to do with the billions of excess human beings?
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Well a population of 9 billion people is simply not sustainable, so they'll probably mostly die off, from a combination of famine, plagues, collapse of public health agencies and infrastructure, lack of proper medical care, war, and cannibalism.
 
TFian said:
Well a population of 9 billion people is simply not sustainable, so they'll probably mostly die off, from a combination of famine, plagues, collapse of public health agencies and infrastructure, lack of proper medical care, war, and cannibalism.
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People have been making this claim for hundreds of years. Yet it keeps on not happening. Hm....
 
You're ignoring the knowledge we are amassing and our unprecedented understanding of reality. Some may romanticize the past for it's value to the human tribal identity and the fulfilling nature of living short lives with barely any time to sit back and appreciate them, when we all had clear defined people to kill and fear and good hard work to keep us from getting bored,... but the more we're learning, the more solutions there are beyond the sky falling down.

You seem to be arguing over what is the more predictable outcome and who is more naive. So far, innovations in production have been exponentially increasing with population.

I think you're shopping for ideas that support your political philosophies and opinions over the class based society we've evolved.
 
Halfcentaur said:
You're ignoring the knowledge we are amassing and our unprecedented understanding of reality. Some may romanticize the past for it's value to the human tribal identity and the fulfilling nature of living short lives with barely any time to sit back and appreciate them, when we all had clear defined people to kill and fear and good hard work to keep us from getting bored,... but the more we're learning, the more solutions there are beyond the sky falling down.
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Of course, on the other hand our unprecedented understanding of reality might lead to a point were we become too powerful... will we be able to survive the point when technology is so advanced that smart but resented high schoolers are able to build explosive devices capable of leveling entire cites (or even planets)?

Then again, I have no evidence that will happen, but lately is not uncommon to hear, from time to time about shootings in schools, those guns that are powerful enough to easily deal with entire armies from 2000 years ago. :eek:

How will we deal with people doing the same to planets using antimatter weapons 2000 years in to the future? :boxedin:

Or don't even go that far... say in 30 years drug dealers make a pact with fundamentalist terrorists to build atomic bombs or something of the like... will civilization be able to survive that? :boggled:
 
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To say that we must live as today's capitalist society, or as tribal people in huts, is a false dichotomy.

Why not stop producing the tons of crap we don't need or already have and instead focus our technology and science on setting up worldwide systems of sustainable housing, food, water, and energy? Then if people want 150 different brands of soap we can discuss it.
 
Ignosticist said:
Of course, on the other hand our unprecedented understanding of reality might lead to a point were we become too powerful... will we be able to survive the point when technology is so advanced that smart but resented high schoolers are able to build explosive devices capable of leveling entire cites (or even planets)?
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Not to detract from very real issues like nuclear weapon proliferation, any society that has that level of technology very likely has a way of monitoring for that type of dangerous device. And that day is likely far in the future.

Then again, I have no evidence that will happen, but lately is not uncommon to hear, from time to time about shootings in schools, those guns that are powerful enough to easily deal with entire armies from 2000 years ago. :eek:
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No, no those guns aren't. Not even close. You'd need a sizable force even using modern guns such as those used in school shootings to deal with a large group armed with spears. Check out some of the problems the British had in Africa. A monstrous advantage? Yes. Easily deal with entire armies? No.

How will we deal with people doing the same to planets using antimatter weapons 2000 years in to the future? :boxedin:
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I'm sure someone will think of something. Probably the same guy who thought of the anti-matter weapon.

Or don't even go that far... say in 30 years drug dealers make a pact with fundamentalist terrorists to build atomic bombs or something of the like... will civilization be able to survive that? :boggled:
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Yes, easily. The most obvious outcome of such an event would be increased international policing and military intervention, possibly even some type of global governance. Of course this assumes that drug deals are even a violent threat in thirty years.

Doomsaying is both easy and silly. It's best to keep a realistic assessment of threats, risks, and costs than go chicken little on every problem.
 
Tfian, you simply ignore the evidence that the world's population will reach it's maximum quite soon (and getting sooner every time it's re-calculated, perhaps 30 years from now) and will then reduce. This "hell in a handbasket" theory of yours is tiresome in the extreme.
 
Puppycow said:
I think they are sincere, but inconsequential.

Obviously, the breeders will inherit the earth, and those who don't will die out.

So it's a self-limiting movement.
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It reminds me of an old religious movement i read about called the "shakers" which promoted childlessness back in the 1600s. Of course, they are all gone now, but are interesting to read about.
 
Puppycow said:
Really? Your main recommended sources of information are a 9/11 Truther and a man who called the victims of 9/11 "little Eichmanns"? And you expect to be taken seriously?
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Of course they expect to be taken seriously. And they expect to be allowed university tenure even though they misrepresented themselves and embarrassed the university. I don't know which is worse - granting them their wishes, or torturing them.

The Entitlement Generation is fully upon us. Want to worry about something, Tfian? Worry about your sources.
 
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