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"Why can't we hate men?"

Lambchops said:
If you actually read the thread and the links in it, you would get it. Context, right?

I'm not lumping lesbians in with dudes (whatever that even means, and what point you think that would make), some women are in relationships with men and some women are in relationships with women.

Violent women are violent women, wether they are straight or gay. Try to keep up.
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I just found it weird that you said men and lesbians can build their own shelters when lesbians can just use the womens
 
Northeastern University; interview in the Chronicle of Higher Education

Lambchops said:
1) Give me an example of feminists who "blame men for everything and perpetually victimize women" and how those particular feminists have any actual influence over what goes on in our current culture. And no, I don't care about some obscure ultra-liberal USA'ian college that no one's ever heard of. Real life examples please. With actual consequenses for me as a man in my late thirties.
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Northeastern University has about 15,000 undergraduate students and 8,000 graduate students. Moreover, the Washington Post is a high-profile platform from which to espouse one's views.
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Conor Friedersdorf responded to Professor Walters in an article in the Atlantic, and the Chronicle of Higher Education interviewed Professor Walters, the author of the WaPo about his and other responses to her editorial. The interviewer asked a few good questions, but did not follow up well IMO. Professor Walters referred to Mr. Friedersdorf's arguments as drivel and as mansplaining. In other words, she did not actually respond in a substantive way at all.
 
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Lambchops said:
So it's not against the law to open a shelter for abused men and/or lesbians.

I guess the feminaziz lost that fight.
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You say that like the law is the only thing that matters. It isn’t. It never was.
 
I mean, if the discussion is strictly "legal equality" men are obviously disadvantaged in this realm (male genital mutilation, selective service).

I don't think my detractors want that to be the sole discussion, though, because then the only possible (but reasonably controversial moral issues even though I'm pro-both) are toplessness of women in some places, and access to abortion.

And that's fair, it shouldn't be the only discussion.
 
a key point from Mr. Friedersdorf

At The Atlantic Mr Friedersdorf wrote, "It is always illogical to hate an entire group of people for behavior perpetrated by a subset of its members and actively opposed or renounced by literally millions of them. It is every bit as easy, and more just, to assign collective rhetorical blame to groups that deserve it, like “murderers” or “rapists” or “domestic abusers” or “sexists.”

Indulging in collective hate validates hatred itself and the flawed premise of group rather than individual responsibility."

If this is mansplaining, then I think we need more of it.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
At The Atlantic Mr Friedersdorf wrote, "It is always illogical to hate an entire group of people for behavior perpetrated by a subset of its members and actively opposed or renounced by literally millions of them. It is every bit as easy, and more just, to assign collective rhetorical blame to groups that deserve it, like “murderers” or “rapists” or “domestic abusers” or “sexists.”

Indulging in collective hate validates hatred itself and the flawed premise of group rather than individual responsibility."

If this is mansplaining, then I think we need more of it.
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That's a longwinded way of saying "not all men."

:duck:
 
rustypouch said:
That's a longwinded way of saying "not all men."

:duck:
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You're not wrong.

Don't misunderstand me; I'm fully aware that not all men are responsible for the actions of a few, nor do I blame anyone but that small subset when I read about casual sexual assault or harassment, but I share in the indignation of most women when guys come back and say, "But I'M not like that" like it somehow excuses culpability for the (admittedly slowly shrinking) mindset that it's okay to treat women as mere sexual objects or like they don't have minds and personalities of their own. It would help if, instead of protesting that "not all men" are like that, that men would instead simply acknowledge and vehemently disparage the attitude of the men who DO sexually harass/assault and offer their simple support to women who suffer it. And likewise, it would help if women AND men did the same for male victims of sexual assault/harassment, because it does exist and it needs to be addressed just as much.

I don't disagree with Mr. Fiedersdorf's statement overall; it is illogical on the part of more militant feminists to blame the entire male gender for the actions of a few. But his statement does not negate the (again, admittedly shrinking) mindset of the majority of society perpetuated by the way we raise male children to believe that to be manly is the most important thing of all, and if you aren't manly you aren't a man. It is this mindset, IMO, that is largely responsible for the difficulties women (and men who are taught differently) face in today's society. It is getting better, I think; just slowly, probably too slowly for the more militant feminists we've been discussing in this thread, which is probably where the problem arose in the first place.
 
Sabrina said:
But his statement does not negate the (again, admittedly shrinking) mindset of the majority of society perpetuated by the way we raise male children to believe that to be manly is the most important thing of all, and if you aren't manly you aren't a man. It is this mindset, IMO, that is largely responsible for the difficulties women (and men who are taught differently) face in today's society.
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I think you gravely misdiagnose the problem here. To the extent that men should not feel the need to be manly (an ill-defined term), the problem is not fundamentally that men are taught as children that they should be manly. The problem, if it even is a problem, is that women seem to want manly men. Men are hardwired to try to win female approval. And women preferentially hook up with manly men. You cannot stop men aspiring to be manly if that is the quality which is rewarded.
 
Ziggurat said:
I think you gravely misdiagnose the problem here. To the extent that men should not feel the need to be manly (an ill-defined term), the problem is not fundamentally that men are taught as children that they should be manly. The problem, if it even is a problem, is that women seem to want manly men. Men are hardwired to try to win female approval. And women preferentially hook up with manly men. You cannot stop men aspiring to be manly if that is the quality which is rewarded.
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But you have to ignore traditional women for these views to fly. It isn't that if you act sensitive you tend to get great friendships but less romantic interest ,is that you are an ******* for expecting romance by being sensitive and are an ******* for acting manly to get romance.

Threes types seem to think men should have the same rules women had in the 50s. Sit there and let us run things.

Personally I feel no one should be in that role, guess that makes me anti equality.
 
Sabrina said:
I don't disagree with Mr. Fiedersdorf's statement overall; it is illogical on the part of more militant feminists to blame the entire male gender for the actions of a few. But his statement does not negate the (again, admittedly shrinking) mindset of the majority of society perpetuated by the way we raise male children to believe that to be manly is the most important thing of all, and if you aren't manly you aren't a man. It is this mindset, IMO, that is largely responsible for the difficulties women (and men who are taught differently) face in today's society. It is getting better, I think; just slowly, probably too slowly for the more militant feminists we've been discussing in this thread, which is probably where the problem arose in the first place.
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It's also unhealthy for quite a few of the men that are taught to "be manly", actually. That's why it's often referred to as "toxic masculinity" - it's harmful to the person who ingests it. See: those guys who think that violence is a solution to problems, who "bottle up" emotions until they turn suicidal or homicidal, etc.
 
Sabrina said:
but I share in the indignation of most women when guys come back and say, "But I'M not like that" like it somehow excuses culpability for the (admittedly slowly shrinking) mindset that it's okay to treat women as mere sexual objects or like they don't have minds and personalities of their own.
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Part of the problem is that, IME, the majority of the men who feel it necessary to pipe up with "But I'M not like that" are, in fact, like that. They may not be full on abusers, stalkers, Incel idiots, but they still have entitlement attitudes and a need to prove their masculinity.

They are apologists, denialists. They are the first out with the whataboutism, relative privation fallacies, "I'm not a sexist, but..." They may not stalk or harass women, but they still have that mindset, "I'm a nice guys, so I deserve...", "I can't get a date, so I'm proof that women only want to date bad guys", and so on. It's the same entitlement attitude, just on a more socially acceptable level.
 
luchog said:
Part of the problem is that, IME, the majority of the men who feel it necessary to pipe up with "But I'M not like that" are, in fact, like that. They may not be full on abusers, stalkers, Incel idiots, but they still have entitlement attitudes and a need to prove their masculinity.
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You have conflated two different things here. Entitlement is not the same as masculinity. And it's not unique to men either, it just manifests differently in men than in women because men want different things than women want. It is indeed bad when men act entitled to women. But women can be just as guilty of acting entitled, it's not an intrinsically masculine flaw.

And as for the need to prove their masculinity, again, you're looking at the wrong end of things. Men will ALWAYS try to prove their masculinity as long as women value masculinity. You can't get men to stop using successful mating tactics, that's pure fantasy. Women value masculinity, and they reward masculinity. You may not like that, but in order to change that, you have to change women. Men will change in response if you can pull that off, they won't if you can't. But it may not even be possible or desirable to change that about women.
 
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