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"Why can't we hate men?"

pharphis said:
I'm not MGTOW, I've happily been with my GF for almost 10 years. I'm fine with the label MRA (men's rights advocate), because I
1) Discuss these issues in a way that doesn't erase male victimhood
2) I can (and am) simultaneously a WRA (women's rights advocate)
3) I have supported charities such as the Canadian Association for Equality

re: Anita Sarkeesian,
If you reread my post, I hope it is clear that I am saying that OTHERS bring up Sarkeesian and presume that my knowledge and opinion only goes as far as laughing at feminists on youtube like her and Big Red. That seems to be a popular genre on youtube.

I never used the word skepticism and I DO NOT try to be a "contrarian edgelord". I'm not sure how you got that out of my comment so I suspect it's your initial reaction to wrong-think.

---

The reason I'm anti-feminist is because
1) I am both a MRA and WRA (egalitarian is fine)
2) Feminist Ideology is based in patriarchy theory. I've made a thread on this topic a couple of months ago, but the gist is that I believe this is a non-supported conspiracy theory hypothesis (arguably disproven).
3) Feminist ideology paints all problems as resulting from men, and frames victimhood as primarily something women experience. This harms both men and women, though arguably hurts men more. This is done through concepts like "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy" and "internalized misogyny".
3b) Notice how all of the labeling is blaming men by proxy. *

Does that mean I will disagree with everything a feminist says or does? No, of course not. What it means is that I think they've improperly modeled reality and thus their proposed solutions will only make things worse while blaming everyone for their failure.

Is that a good enough answer? The TL;DR is "they blame men for everything, perpetually victimize women and this makes everything worse for everyone"

*As a side note, quite often when (including in this thread iirc) someone mentions how males suffer from the majority of say.. violence (or any problem they are victims of primarily) the feminist instinct and vocalization is typically "ya but men are mostly the PERPETRATORS").

edit: ninjad. I should know better than to answer such questions but I try to be forthcoming with my beliefs, even if controversial.
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1) Give me an example of feminists who "blame men for everything and perpetually victimize women" and how those particular feminists have any actual influence over what goes on in our current culture. And no, I don't care about some obscure ultra-liberal USA'ian college that no one's ever heard of. Real life examples please. With actual consequenses for me as a man in my late thirties.


2) Tell me how feminism makes your quality of life as a western male worse than it could have been without it. Just generally.

3) Elaborate on the main issues we western males are facing because of our gender, and how those issues are tied to feminism.

Thanks in advance. :thumbsup:
 
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Oh, and regarding your "side note", are you disputing the claim that men are more prone to violence than women?

If so, what do you base that on?
 
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re 3) I did NOT blame men's issues on feminism in general. Feminism is a contributing factor, but it's not "the problem". Just in case that wasn't clear.

Here's a quick example: Male genital mutilation is fully legal everywhere in the west, and feminists minimize this problem sometimes openly but usually by hyper focusing on female genital mutilation, which in the west is not very common at all (and it varies in severity - sometimes worse, sometimes comparable and sometimes not as severe as male genital mutilation - despite popular opinion). I'm not saying they can't fight against it, but the framing virtually never includes male genital mutilation, which is both legal and popular unlike FGM. I don't think you'll ever find someone who is anti-MGM and pro-FGM.

Another example: Duluth model. Or domestic violence shelters that don't allow boys or men, leaving men with no options when they or their children are abused, especially if it is a female perpetrator (since the police will arrest the male victim instead via the duluth model). You can blame most of this on feminist activism framing domestic violence as "male perpetrators, female victims" even though the opposite is true (but it's pretty close to even so I don't frame it that way generally). Thousands of women's shelters... almost 0 for men. See White Ribbon, for example.

There are other issues of course, but I don't want to pretend that they're all related to feminism (again I never said feminism is to blame in general). I'll just list some:

1) alimony
2) custody
3) sentencing gap
4) homelessness
5) suicide
6) education issues at all levels
7) the biggest of them all imo: Fatherlessness

No I'm not saying that men are less prone to violence than women, though that seems to be the case in domestic violence.

Back to answering your question 2)
I've already answered this, to some extent. Due to how feminists frame problems in society, even on mainstream television and news, my issues as a man are minimized. This is even truer at university where I currently am. Not only are my problems minimized by society, the government also cares less and therefore there is insufficient funding and even biases against men in some key areas.
 
luchog said:
No one has ever accused radicals or fanatics of being rational. It's in the same vein as Afrocentrism, and other postmodern movements. The problem with postmoderist philosophies in general is that they not only allow, but encourage, a lot of pick-and-choose syncretism and re-interpretation/re-definition based entirely on subjective preferences and individual worldviews in a very Humpty-Dumpty-like manner.
Click to expand...
I don't entirely agree with you here - again you're talking about a very peculiar Anglo-American version (bastardization, I'd say) of Postmodernism. Weaker forms of postmodern thought and thus a type of "pick-and-choosyness" are widely accepted within the humanities.

Admittedly my patience for the actual francophone big names in postmodernism is pretty limited, I've never been able to read Focault or Derrida, but I trust the judgment of a good number of people who argue they made important contributions.
 
This thread has become so full of buzz in-words it's beginning to become tiresome to read
 
Lambchops said:
1) Give me an example of feminists who "blame men for everything and perpetually victimize women" and how those particular feminists have any actual influence over what goes on in our current culture. And no, I don't care about some obscure ultra-liberal USA'ian college that no one's ever heard of. Real life examples please. With actual consequenses for me as a man in my late thirties.
Click to expand...
Do they need to be Scottish?
 
pharphis said:
re 3) I did NOT blame men's issues on feminism in general. Feminism is a contributing factor, but it's not "the problem". Just in case that wasn't clear.

Here's a quick example: Male genital mutilation is fully legal everywhere in the west, and feminists minimize this problem sometimes openly but usually by hyper focusing on female genital mutilation, which in the west is not very common at all (and it varies in severity - sometimes worse, sometimes comparable and sometimes not as severe as male genital mutilation - despite popular opinion). I'm not saying they can't fight against it, but the framing virtually never includes male genital mutilation, which is both legal and popular unlike FGM. I don't think you'll ever find someone who is anti-MGM and pro-FGM.

Another example: Duluth model. Or domestic violence shelters that don't allow boys or men, leaving men with no options when they or their children are abused, especially if it is a female perpetrator (since the police will arrest the male victim instead via the duluth model). You can blame most of this on feminist activism framing domestic violence as "male perpetrators, female victims" even though the opposite is true (but it's pretty close to even so I don't frame it that way generally). Thousands of women's shelters... almost 0 for men. See White Ribbon, for example.

There are other issues of course, but I don't want to pretend that they're all related to feminism (again I never said feminism is to blame in general). I'll just list some:

1) alimony
2) custody
3) sentencing gap
4) homelessness
5) suicide
6) education issues at all levels
7) the biggest of them all imo: Fatherlessness

No I'm not saying that men are less prone to violence than women, though that seems to be the case in domestic violence.

Back to answering your question 2)
I've already answered this, to some extent. Due to how feminists frame problems in society, even on mainstream television and news, my issues as a man are minimized. This is even truer at university where I currently am. Not only are my problems minimized by society, the government also cares less and therefore there is insufficient funding and even biases against men in some key areas.
Click to expand...

Well, that was predictable. And hilarious.

Feminism makes men kill themselves. Feminism makes men homeless. Feminism makes men not study. Feminism makes men who are criminals go to jail. Feminists run shelters for women, and therefore no one can run shelters for men, because feminism.

So cute. :D
 
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Lambchops said:
Well, that was predictable. And hilarious.

Feminism makes men kill themselves. Feminism makes men homeless. Feminism makes men not study. Feminism makes men who are criminals go to jail. Feminists run shelters for women, and therefore no one can run shelters for men, because feminism.

So cute. :D
Click to expand...

Do you even know what the Duluth model is? Because you don't seem to. You dismiss it without any reason or even apparent consideration.

There's a word for that, but it isn't cute.
 
Ziggurat said:
Do you even know what the Duluth model is? Because you don't seem to. You dismiss it without any reason or even apparent consideration.

There's a word for that, but it isn't cute.
Click to expand...

I'm a norwegian. Why would I know about it?

But educate me. What is this Duluth model?
 
Lambchops said:
I'm a norwegian. Why would I know about it?

But educate me. What is this Duluth model?
Click to expand...

If you didn’t know what it was, what business did you have dismissing it? You should have asked in your previous post.

It’s easy to google, I might post links later but I’m short on time at the moment.
 
Ziggurat said:
If you didn’t know what it was, what business did you have dismissing it? You should have asked in your previous post.

It’s easy to google, I might post links later but I’m short on time at the moment.
Click to expand...

My business is important internet business.

Now support your claim, post links. It's not my job.
 
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Lambchops said:
My business is important internet business.

Now support your claim, post links.
Click to expand...

What claim do you want him to support? That you don’t know what the Duluth model is? You already admitted that.

That you should know what something is before dismissing it? That seems pretty obvious.

I don’t think Ziggurat made any other claims with respect to this particular topic, but correct me if I’m wrong.
 
Roboramma said:
What claim do you want him to support? That you don’t know what the Duluth model is? You already admitted that.

That you should know what something is before dismissing it? That seems pretty obvious.

I don’t think Ziggurat made any other claims with respect to this particular topic, but correct me if I’m wrong.
Click to expand...

You could have used this post to educate me on the Duluth Model. But you didn't.
 
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Ziggurat said:
If it isn’t your job to educate yourself, what makes you think it’s my job?

But fine, I’ll post a link.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Duluth+model
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. I've read it, and I agree with a lot of what has been brought up as criticism.

But yet I fail to see how this makes it impossible to open shelters for battered men and/or lesbians. Does feminism somehow prevent men and/or lesbians from getting off their asses and actually caring about other men and/or lesbians who have been abused by their female partners?

I mean, even here in Norway (one of the most leftist-progressive countries on the planet) I could open a shelter for battered men and/or lesbians tomorrow, and teh ebil feminazis would have no say in the matter.

Does the Duluth Model mean that it's against the law to open a men/lesbian shelter in the US? Or are you just lazy and waiting for the government to do it for you?
 
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pharphis said:
re 3) I did NOT blame men's issues on feminism in general. Feminism is a contributing factor, but it's not "the problem". Just in case that wasn't clear.
Here's a quick example: Male genital mutilation is fully legal everywhere in the west, and feminists minimize this problem sometimes openly but usually by hyper focusing on female genital mutilation, which in the west is not very common at all (and it varies in severity - sometimes worse, sometimes comparable and sometimes not as severe as male genital mutilation - despite popular opinion). I'm not saying they can't fight against it, but the framing virtually never includes male genital mutilation, which is both legal and popular unlike FGM. I don't think you'll ever find someone who is anti-MGM and pro-FGM.

Another example: Duluth model. Or domestic violence shelters that don't allow boys or men, leaving men with no options when they or their children are abused, especially if it is a female perpetrator (since the police will arrest the male victim instead via the duluth model). You can blame most of this on feminist activism framing domestic violence as "male perpetrators, female victims" even though the opposite is true (but it's pretty close to even so I don't frame it that way generally). Thousands of women's shelters... almost 0 for men. See White Ribbon, for example.

There are other issues of course, but I don't want to pretend that they're all related to feminism (again I never said feminism is to blame in general). I'll just list some:
1) alimony
2) custody
3) sentencing gap
4) homelessness
5) suicide
6) education issues at all levels
7) the biggest of them all imo: Fatherlessness

No I'm not saying that men are less prone to violence than women, though that seems to be the case in domestic violence.

Back to answering your question 2)
I've already answered this, to some extent. Due to how feminists frame problems in society, even on mainstream television and news, my issues as a man are minimized. This is even truer at university where I currently am. Not only are my problems minimized by society, the government also cares less and therefore there is insufficient funding and even biases against men in some key areas.
Click to expand...

Lambchops said:
Well, that was predictable. And hilarious.

Feminism makes men kill themselves. Feminism makes men homeless. Feminism makes men not study. Feminism makes men who are criminals go to jail. Feminists run shelters for women, and therefore no one can run shelters for men, because feminism.

So cute. :D
Click to expand...

Once again: reread what I actually said not what you wanted me to say
 
Lambchops said:
Thanks for the link. I've read it, and I agree with a lot of what has been brought up as criticism.

But yet I fail to see how this makes it impossible to open shelters for battered men and/or lesbians. Does feminism somehow prevent men and/or lesbians from getting off their asses and actually caring about other men and/or lesbians who have been abused by their female partners?

I mean, even here in Norway (one of the most leftist-progressive countries on the planet) I could open a shelter for battered men and/or lesbians tomorrow, and teh ebil feminazis would have no say in the matter.

Does the Duluth Model mean that it's against the law to open a men/lesbian shelter in the US? Or are you just lazy and waiting for the government to do it for you?
Click to expand...

Ya man, I'll just materialize hundreds of thousands of dollars and get right to that. Oh, you're telling me that millions already go to women and almost 0 to men? The government contributes to much of that? Hm.

But yes, CAFE is building one after their gofundme.

"My death is due to not being taken serious on the issue lack of services. Alberta Spends $60 million for women & nothing for men where is the equality where is my dignity as a victim who could not reach the point of survivor ? ? ? ?"

-Earl Silverman, in a suicide note

He tried for years to get funding from the government and support from women's shelters. It's clear that the government is not willing to do so, and it's clear after decades of advocacy that feminists are not willing to stand off of the throne of perpetual female victimhood in order to lend a hand to those who are equally (or greater) victims of domestic violence.
 
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