Why are guns made to kill?

I don't have anything I'd kill for. But if I thought my life was in danger through no fault of my own, I'd kill a whole slew of gang members dumb enough to break into my house without their guns already drawn.

Yeah, but in what comic book/bad 80s action movie alternate universe is that any sort of realistic possibility... and why would that require you to own a handgun, or carry it outside of your home?

Frankly, it isn't the gun ownership that bothers me, because I've owned firearms before, and likely will again. It is the paranoid delusions of Charles Bronson-itude that seems to have possessed so many vocal gun owners.

I mean, after you take out these guys

B00000AOTZ.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


...are you going to rescue the POWs?

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On the one hand, we're a gun-happy and violent society. On the other, the odds of being a victim of violent crime are so infinitesimal only delusional people carry a gun to protect themselves from it? Give me a break.

It's not a realistic possibility until it happens to you, like happened to a co-worker of mine (oh man, what are the odds? I mean, I don't know any lottery winners). If it does, it's a little late to retroactively change your stance.

Like a fire extinguisher, burglar alarm, or any of the other items most people will never use but should have... my gun is there just in case.
 
On the one hand, we're a gun-happy and violent society. On the other, the odds of being a victim of violent crime are so infinitesimal only delusional people carry a gun to protect themselves from it? Give me a break.

It's not a realistic possibility until it happens to you, like happened to a co-worker of mine (oh man, what are the odds? I mean, I don't know any lottery winners). If it does, it's a little late to retroactively change your stance.

Like a fire extinguisher, burglar alarm, or any of the other items most people will never use but should have... my gun is there just in case.

Yeah, just in case one of those roving packs of rapists or lesbians with pink pistols wander too close to your "castle"?
 
Doesn't the topic assume guns are made to kill and wouldn't that qualify as circular reasoning?
 
I don't have anything I'd kill for. But if I thought my life was in danger through no fault of my own, I'd kill a whole slew of gang members dumb enough to break into my house without their guns already drawn.


Except when was the last time a "whole slew of gang members" broke into anyone's house, armed or unarmed?

Having an easily accessible firearm with easily accessible ammunition (maybe even loaded) present in a house constitutes a constant and very real risk of accidental or spur-of-moment death. This is undeniable - as backed up by the number of people killed by guns in domestic disputes or accidentally.

Now life is full of risks. If the benefit outweighs the risk, I'm all for it. But the reality is the risk of the type of death I mentioned above vastly outweighs the risk of being killed by someone breaking into your house (let alone a "slew of gang members").

I could argue I need a machine gun sitting loaded by my bed just in case Islamic terrorists bust in to murder me. But the odds of that happening are as close to zero as doesn't matter, and the odds of someone accidentally getting killed or injured by that machine gun are pretty good.

It's a simple risk/benefit formula.
 
Which Americans here (on JREF) claim to be willing to use deadly force to protect property?

Ranb


Read pretty much any gun control thread in this subforum and you'll have your answer.
 
Damn skippy. I'd shoot someone with a pink gun on general principle. :cool:
I have a collection of medieval weapons. Sword, Battle Axes and Flails. I welcome an intruder. My collection has STOPPED the visits from the JW and LDS though :)
 
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Having an easily accessible firearm with easily accessible ammunition (maybe even loaded) present in a house constitutes a constant and very real risk of accidental or spur-of-moment death. This is undeniable - as backed up by the number of people killed by guns in domestic disputes or accidentally.
It's no different than a nail gun, chainsaw, or any other tool you can hurt yourself with. If you are going to use one, you better make sure you're trained to do so.

I have exactly as much sympathy for someone shooting themselves with their own gun as I do for someone getting shot because they broke into the home of a gun owner... none. It takes about two days of proper training to never pick up a gun in a way that will make it go off before you want it to.

A drunk or untrained driver behind the wheel of a car is a danger to himself and everyone around him. A drunk or untrained gun owner playing with his firearm is in the exact same situation. That doesn't mean we should all go back to riding horses or give up our guns.
 
I have a collection of medieval weapons. Sword, Battle Axes and Flails. I welcome an intruder. My collection has STOPPED the visits from the JW and LDS though :)
I've got some Japanese swords but they're strictly decorative and unsharpened. My dirk and the elk-antler bowie knife (those are full-size bic lighters) are about as old skool as I go with legitmitely lethal weapons):

dirk2.jpg


bwmbowie3.jpg


:cool:
 
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I've got some Japanese swords but they're strictly decorative and unsharpened. My dirk and the elk-antler bowie knife (those are full-size bic lighters) are about as old skool as I go with legitmitely lethal weapons):

http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/dirk2.jpg

http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/bwmbowie3.jpg

:cool:
My swords really aren't sharp but they will still cut. The short Katana is sharp. My daggers are so sharp I don't handle them to often and just admire their beauty. Battle Axes are not sharp but they will cut deeply anyway. Flails....who knows :)
 
I am curious if you have ever had anything stolen from your home, particularly something irreplaceable such as a family heirloom.

I've had things stolen - both from my home and from my car - but not anything I would consider a family "heirloom". I don't own anything I would consider a family "heirloom". Actually I don't think my parents do either. The only material possession I have that I actually value significantly is my intellectual property (I'm a writer). That's irreplaceable and means more to me than my entire life. But my solution in protecting it is not to have a gun, but to ensure it's well protected - all of the data is backed up every 6 months and kept in four different places, one of which is on my person at all times.

I guess the ultimate thing for me is, even if you do value some of your possessions that much (and I don't see anything actually wrong with valuing possessions that much, I note it as a difference, not a "flaw") having a gun and being willing to protect those possessions doesn't actually ensure they are safe. There's still a good chance that someone intending to damage or steal your property would still be successful, regardless of how well armed you are. Consider this. What percentage of time do you actually spend located inside your property, where you would be capable of preventing a break in?

(I also know from personal experience that it's quite possible to be at home in your house and still have someone break in and steal from you without you knowing).

Now, the possession of an easily accessible loaded firearm is assumably for one of two reasons - to protect life, or to protect property.

In order to protect life, you need to have the gun on you at all times. Having it under your bed is no good if you're in the lounge, or out driving in your car. Are you allowed to carry your firearm at work?

If we consider a likely life-protecting incident, how effective is a firearm as far as protection goes? Soldiers in combat carry loaded firearms, drawn and ready to use, often held at the aim position, safety off, ready to go. They are repeatedly trained to respond rapidly and effectively to any threat. Soldiers while on the battlefield anticipate and expect threats to their life at every moment. And yet soldiers are still killed in ambushes. All the time.

Why? Because if an threat to life comes suddenly and unexpectedly there's little you can do about it. Carrying a firearm in a holster is totally ineffective. And then consider the average citizen - they do not maintain any of the additional attitudes that improve a soldier's chances of surviving an ambush. Civilians do not have the same level of training. They are not anticipating a threat to life at every moment. They do not have weapons drawn, loaded, safety off. Citizens, also, are typically alone.

Thus in an ambush type threat to life situation carrying a firearm is not effective as protection.

What of the other type - a non ambush situation - some sort of confrontation escalates to killing.

Humans are biologically opposed to killing other humans. This is a fundamental factor of being a social animal. Social animals interact with each other through the behaviour of posturing and submitting, not through the fight-or-flight mechanism that results in intentional killing.

In a confrontation scenario, the liklihood is very high that the other person has no desire to kill you at all, but is merely posturing in order to dominate you. Threats of violence and even death are all part of that posturing. Once the posturing person achieves submission it becomes psychologically harder for them to then intentionally kill you. Therefore your best chance of survival is to submit.

However carrying a weapon is itself a form of posturing, and mentally by carrying a firearm a psychological refusal to submit is established. So both parties then attempt to dominate the other through their posturing. This leads to escalation. Escalation is the most typical way in which a non violent situation becomes violent. It becomes violent because both sides attempt to dominate the other and neither side is willing to submit.

In this sort of situation carrying a firearm actually makes it more likely that the situation will escalate to the point of someone being killed.

So therefore a firearm is an ineffective choice for protection of life.

On to property. Property can only be protected by a firearm if both the firearm and the person using the firearm are present at the time that the property is threatened, and the person is aware of the threat. In the instance of theft from a house or dwelling, I am speculating here, but I suspect the overwhelming majority of break ins occurs when the property is not occupied. As I myself have learned, in a large house it's also quite possible that your property can be threatened while you are occupying it, but you can still be unaware of it.

A firearm is therefore an ineffective choice for protection of property.

Balanced against this is the very real and undeniable evidence that the presence of an accessible loaded firearm in a house poses a serious risk to the the occupants of that house either through accidental firing or escalation of a domestic dispute.

So. We have a significant risk associated with possessing the firearm.
The firearm offers benefit against other risks, however those risks are very low, and the benefit the firearm offers against them is very poor.
 
In order to protect life, you need to have the gun on you at all times. Having it under your bed is no good if you're in the lounge, or out driving in your car. Are you allowed to carry your firearm at work?
Yes, and I do.

The only time I'm not carrying is when I'm somewhere that serves alcohol, and to be honest that's one bit of gun control I'm pretty OK with. :)
 
Yes, and I do.

The only time I'm not carrying is when I'm somewhere that serves alcohol, and to be honest that's one bit of gun control I'm pretty OK with. :)
Wonder why I can get a concealed firearm permit but NOBODY is gonna give me a permit to carry a 2 foot long blade :(
 
Read pretty much any gun control thread in this subforum and you'll have your answer.

The reason I asked is that I have stated in the past on various forums that I would defend myself (possibly with deadly force) if a burglar I interrupted attacked me. Some people have interpreted this to mean that I would use deadly force to protect my property. It is obvious to me when I type those words that I am claiming to use deadly force to protect myself, but some people seem to be so prejudiced, that any form of self defense for any reason is wrong.

So, I would like to ask again, what posters here have claimed that they would use deadly force to protect property.

Ranb
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hope to God I never, ever, ever have to pull my gun outside of a firing range. Because if I do it's to kill, and even the most justifiable shooting is going to leave serious emotional scarring before even thinking about the legal ramifications.

But I still carry everywhere I legally can... because I'd always rather deal with all that after the fact than be lying on the ground bleeding to death thinking "Damn I wish I'd had a gun."


I would really, really hate to be in a society where thinking this way was even possible.

Rolfe.
 
To be honest, I definitely prefer our society to one where teenagers run up to you and punch you in the face while their friend captures it on a cellphone camera because they know they have the upper hand.

We have a terrible gang problem. But chavs are a fad that would have lasted one day in the good ol' USA.
patriot.gif
 
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