Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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What won't melt?? The car??? Have you EVER seen a car fire before?? I doubt VERY seriously that you have EVER had any kind of firefighter training.

What is a HNI??
 
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You did not answer the question in the slightest.

I didn't ask you the cause of anything.

I laid out in this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4900623 the direct consequences of one row of columns (on floor 98) failing.

The method of getting these columns to fail are immaterial for the purpose of this discussion. It could be by buckling or by explosives.

The important point is that, as a direct result to the 3 story columns, plus the 1 story stagger of adjacent column assemblies, the damage to the floors above & below the 98th floor are considerable.

That is, the columns on the 97th and 99th floors are NOT, as you claim, "undamaged".

You have acceded that, "perhaps it's only the the colums below the 96th floor that are undamaged."

This is too far to go with you. I want to hear your comment my damage assessment for the columns, floors & cross trusses IMMEDIATELY AFTER the columns fail, but BEFORE the upper block impacts onto Floor 97.

Tom

Please, below any locally damaged columns/floors between upper part C (not damaged) and lower part A (not damaged) - insert the floors you like - there are undamaged columns (in part A). These columns will first damage the weak elements/floor of part C and then arrest part C, when part C is displacing down. That's why a one-way crush down cannot take place. Part A damages and stops part C. Happens every time.

Pls, prove that the opposite can take place.
 
No it does not.


Your uninformed and irrational assertion does little to change the FACT that my statement is completely correct.


Here let's rephrase that in "plain english" (my ex's grandfather was a "plain english" translator as a profession who would take detailed and confusing legal terms and re-write them in plain english so the layman could understand. That was 20 years ago and his services are needed even more today with stuff like this being spewed left and right)

What you are saying is the lack of anyone speaking up means everyone agrees with the Official Conspiracy Theory.


I am saying, as should be obvious, that when prominent spokespersons for an industry make a comprehensive statement, other members of that industry can certainly be expected to take exception if the statement is plainly wrong. Only a madman would deny such a truism. If a structural engineer announces that it is feasible to construct a 1,100 ft. tall skyscaper using wood, he will be met by a thunderous torrent of dissent.


Now, let's tackle the problems this belief has.

1 - people have spoken up, many many people. Even people with the requisite qualifications in the requisite fields. As a matter of fact more experts have spoken up against the Official Conspiracy Theory than experts who have spoken up to defend the Official Conspiracy Theory.


You repeat this foolish falsehood as though people who know better will start taking you seriously. Your juvenile insistence in referring to a nonexistent "official" theory exposes your game. You run from my questions for good reason. They are terribly inconvenient to the lies you peddle. Nobody thinks that the seismologists, metallurgists, air traffic controllers, avionics techs, independent academics, firefighters, etc. are part of your imaginary "government" conspiracy. You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. Do you mean the "government" that exists somehow outside the actual government? Grow up.

Your insane movement's "experts" have a way of turning out to know nothing about the subjects they pontificate about.


2 - Your premise is flawed from the get-go. You cannot make an assumption on someone's belief. Anyone who has not spoken up cannot be classified in either the pro-OCT group or the pro-CDT group.


Again, obviously wrong. An assertion that makes members of an industry complicit in a monstrous and unprecedented crime would not go unchallenged. It is idiocy to pretend that thousands of demolition professionals would quietly accept flagrant, provable falsehoods designed to protect criminals. Your assertion is beneath contempt.
If I'm wrong, then you'll produce ONE demolitiion professional who buys your rubbish.


3 - to try and claim that people who object to the Official Conspiracy Theory would have spoken up ignores the entire human psychological aspect of human nature and of our society. THIS IS A VERY REAL THING. Fear of losing ones job, or fear of being ridiculed by the controlled Mass Media, or even fear for your life (as evidenced by the Cheney assassination ring).


You've been caught lying again. Cheney wanted to assassinate al Qaeda leaders. I wish he had done a better job. To make a disingenuous, absurd leap from targeting avowed and deadly enemies of America to targeting ordinary people is exactly the sort of irresponsible crap you frauds specialize in. Not one member of the vast legion of Bush-bashers, professional and amateur, feared any retribution form the "government." Your "mass media" loathed Bush and Cheney, and never missed an opportunity to undermine their policies. Who are you trying to kid?


Comical cowardice! hmmm, comical cowardice! Does that mean you will have the courage to come on over to the BBC blog at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2008/10/caught_up_in_a_conspiracy_theo.html?page=1#comments and try and defend your beliefs there away from the safety of having 15 "debunkers" jump in and provide cover for you?


You are a coward. That is why you carefully avoid all of my inconvenient questions.
 
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But it will not melt! And it will not one-way crush down. Just local fires. Easy to handle. I have actually done advanced fire fighting training. Very useful. I have stopped fires several times. But you are off topic. Pls explain why a one-way crush down is possible.

No, you need to explain why your ridiculous "axiom" isn't a pile of manure.

For instance, why doesn't it apply if the local failure is caused by demolition explosives?

That seems like a major problem with your "theory".
 
What won't melt?? The car??? Have you EVER seen a car fire before?? I doubt VERY seriously that you have EVER had any kind of firefighter training.

What is a HNI??

Actually I got very good marks in fire fighting by the armed forces. So when the supreme commander of the Jugoslav armed forces at the time (1970) come to visit the fire fighting training establishment I was training at, I was one selected to demonstrate our abilities. Quite fun. Why would I say I have no fire figthing training? But you are off topic! Pls show how a one-way crush down is possible.
 
Heiwa,

look at these photos, and tell me what you see?? I see melted steel.

http://www.lawrenceroadfire.org/news stories html/images_news/2003.05.02 Fatal Car Fire.JPG

On the door, near the bottom.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2528708548_911b18acec.jpg

WHERE'S THE HOOD??? Oh, yeah, look under the car. There is some engine parts under there too Heiwa. How did they get there???

http://www.colognefire.com/Car Fire-boyscouts 011.jpg

Another one Heiwa. Can you tell me what happened to the hood?? I see the substructure, but not the skin.....

So, Heiwa, what is a HNI???
 
WHat is a HNI Heiwa?? How would you describe this. Please, I am dying to know. Considering it is a worldwide thing, not just a US thing, please explain to me what it is.

To answer your silly question about a one way collapse. I don't profess to know how or why these things happen. I leave that up to the experts to decide. I trust most of their conclusions. Obviously not yours, of course.

PS, here's another one that is all melted.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/CNG_car_front.jpg

Care to tell me what is missing in that picture??
 
AA. Yes. It seems the WTC 7 CD was concentrated at floors 6 and 13. Thus upper part floors 16 - 47 of WTC 7 free fell for 2.25 seconds. NIst agrees. Happens every time when CD is at work.


Now that you have been caught in a huge, provable lie, are you willing to admit that you are an agenda-driven fraud who has wasted everyone's time with baseless idiocy?

Obviously, there were no explosives in WTC 7. The NIST Report exposed your falsehood. Explosives, real ones, make sounds. None were heard or recorded.

It is time for you to go away.
 
Who does NIST work for? and who put together the 9/11 commission?


NIST is an agency of the Department of Commerce. I know almost as little as you do about the ideological leanings of the bureaucrats who staff it. I would guess, given the nature of bureaucracies, that there are more Democrats than Republicans. Your mindless insistence that this agency charged with determing why structures fail lent itself to supporting an evil conspiracy to do--your side has never figured out what the conspiracy was supposed to do--well, to do something requires considerable fleshing-out. Is it your position that NIST deliberately publishes reams of bad science? Is Bill Smith justified in fleeing in terror whenever he is asked why no scientists or engineers in countries unfriendly to the U.S. show us the "errors" that are so obvious to angry, empty-headed adolescents? So, c'mon now, why is NIST so sure that no one will call attention to the "errors"? Can you--heh-heh--show us ONE of those "errors"? Why not?


The 9/11 Commission was put together to mollify family members of the Islamists' victims. The Democrats on the commission were eager to whitewash Clinton's years of passivity, while the Republicans wanted to lay the entire blame on Clinton, ignoring the awkward fact that Bush promised to do more to fight terrorism. Neither side takes your idiocy seriously.


The answer to both of those is the government of course. So are you saying that the 2 agencies/groups that the government tasked to find the answers to 9/11 cannot be considered "the government" when talking about their theories? If not them then who?


Sorry, you're not in the schoolyard now. People here are much smarter than you and know much more. NIST was tasked with explaining the mechanism by which the towers collapsed. The 9/11 Commission was tasked with bringing together in a convenient, readable form answers to frequently asked questions. As you know, the original investigation that determined the identities of the hijackers was a massive, multi-agency effort. If you want to pretend that your imaginary conspiracy controls the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the police and fire departments of NYC and Washington, D.C., no adult can stop you. But don't expect anyone to take you seriously.


And if not them then does the government even have a Conspiracy Theory on 9/11? If not how can they justify invading Afghanistan? (Iraq was of course invaded for other spurious reasons)


When it was determined that the hijackers were affiliated with al Qaeda, a group led by Osama bin Laden that operated training camps in Afghanistan, the Taliban, the rulers of Afghanistan, were asked to turn over bin Laden. Their refusal was based on the conviction that the U.S. would lob a few cruise missiles and bluster impotently in the U.N. They failed to reckon with the man who occupied the White House, who happened to be George Bush, not Al Gore.



But of course this is you playing semantics so you could call Bill a liar, when in truth you are lying about Bill lying and the reasons for it.

As liars go, Bill is a very foolish one, but he does lie constantly. He seems to enjoy getting caught. You are, as usual, wrong, and you were exposed again.



There's the smear and ridicule all rolled into one tactic. This is probably the favorite tactic here on JREF, but to any critical thinker it just makes you look silly.


You are the antithesis of a critical thinker. You are an agenda-driven sheep who bleats assent to any rubbish shoveled your way by cynical, insane frauds.
 
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Mmmmm so you are psychic now? If they have not come out and stated what they believe then why would you try and claim what they believe?

This is just more "debunker" dishonesty.

You see folks, "debunkers" and moreso disinfo agents are required to make it look like the Official Conspiracy Theory is solid with no holes and backed by every single thinking human on the planet. That's part of the psyop, that's how the psychology of it works. Always sound sure of yourself and always claim that everyone agrees with you and no one agrees with the loons (and you have to constantly use those terms like "looney" and "nuts"), and of course the sheep follow suit because they have heard the disinfo agent say they then repeat it as a mantra.

[Off Topic] Interesting terms you have used there, Steve. Are you psychic now? So, now you're assuming there are disinfo agents tossing psyops into the fray to mislead people here?? [Back to topic]

Heiwa, your analogy is still flawed.
 
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Wasn't it only a page or two ago where we had a mod come in and request that the personal attacks stop?

I guess the personal attack and insult tactic is just to appealing to the "debunker"

Will I have a need to report those posts that continue to break the house rules?


Good idea! It's certainly a lot easier than responding to questions that expose you as a fraud.

Let's get back to my characterization of your "Controlled Demolition Hypothesis." I said it involved super-powered Jews magically planting tons of soundless explosives without being noticed to cause the buildings to collapse from the precise floors impacted by the planes. Admittedly, that's so laughably ridiculous that only a moron with no self-respect could possibly embrace it. Tell us what the "real" hypothesis states. Have you made any effort yet to find that elusive demolition expert who buys the nonsense you peddle? You say you haven't made any effort? Why not?
 
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Heiwa,

Aahem. Caan you tell me what a HNI is?? I have answered your silly question openly and honestly.

Can you answer mine??? Or are you going to beat around the bush, spout off how good you are, but not answer a single question that is a basic firefighting tidbit??
 
Please, below any locally damaged columns/floors between upper part C (not damaged) and lower part A (not damaged) - insert the floors you like - there are undamaged columns (in part A). These columns will first damage the weak elements/floor of part C and then arrest part C, when part C is displacing down. That's why a one-way crush down cannot take place. Part A damages and stops part C. Happens every time.

Pls, prove that the opposite can take place.
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And for the 3rd consecutive time, you do not answer my questions.
Would you please answer the questions that I have asked?


HERE IS MY QUESTION:
I laid out in this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4900623 the damage that would result from the removal of one row of columns, centered on the 98th floor.

Do you disagree with, or not understand, any aspect of the damage to the floors, cross trusses & columns as I have described them in that post?


This is my only question at this point.


Tom.
 
Probably most of this stuff is pretty banal. Just because something is secret doesn't mean it is critical to national security. Sometimes it's just classified by an overzealous officer/bureaucrat who's trying to cover his own behind.

A lot of it is just details about some situation, device, person, or system...

For example there are many systems that are not classified....indeed a google search can give information about them....but certain details about that system are classified because it would compromise the system in some way.
 
Heiwa can you isolate any specific reason that T will not take on this post ?

Part C fell directly down on part A. The only force on the upstanding giant core columns was therefore compressive. After a small amount of elastic absorence of the downward force these columns would have punctured any floor and stripped off any floor to column connection that they encountered in part C. This would have ocurred before any plastic deformation of the upstanding columns was spossible seeing that the PE of the seperately descending components could never have overcome the general and constant SE of the individual upstanding giant columns.

Furthermore as the upstanding columns buried themselves deeper in the descending body of part C that body would have provided lateral support for the upstanding columns.

What specifically do you want him to answer in this post that has not already been answered?
 
Heiwa can you isolate any specific reason that T will not take on this post ?

Part C fell directly down on part A. The only force on the upstanding giant core columns was therefore compressive.
The problem that invalidates their entire premise of the question is that the loads were not just compressive; they were also bending stresses. Visceoelastic creep in the fire regions is one mechanism which caused buckling leading up to collapse initiation. The mechanical forces induced by the off-plane upper section was another post initiation. It's not a particularly difficult concept
 
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I am not 100% sure of the reasons that some of those countries do not rattle America's cage. One of the first things I did when I realised that 9/11 was an inside job was to check what America's enemies were saying. Not much if the truth be told. Just one very intriguing remark from the Iranian President about there being no true list of victims from the WTC. I don't know what he meant but I always bear it in mind. You never know when it might find a place in the puzzle.

Another time was when there was a big 9/11 debate on Russian TV. The Russians floated the notion hat one of their cosmonauts had observed the events from space and might have something new to say. It was just a political gambit though to pressure America about something.

Maybe the main reason is that they do not want to eat an ICBM or have an unfortunate Earthquake.

I used to eat ICBM's for breakfast. For Earthquakes I'd call on the dirt dumb Elemental.
 
Maybe the main reason is that they do not want to eat an ICBM or have an unfortunate Earthquake.

:dl: :dl: :dl:

So you're one of those whackjobs who believes that HAARP can be used to create earthquakes? That's just great! You really will believe anything won't you?
 
:dl: :dl: :dl:

So you're one of those whackjobs who believes that HAARP can be used to create earthquakes? That's just great! You really will believe anything won't you?

Oh god......not the "HAARP is a seeeekrit weather control device/project".....

It's truly amazing how many gubmint "sekrits" those troofers have uncovered!
 
Oh god......not the "HAARP is a seeeekrit weather control device/project".....

It's truly amazing how many gubmint "sekrits" those troofers have uncovered!

The gvmt is all powerful and all knowing.
 
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