Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you... nevertheless...


bill smith said:
Self-evidently the Core columns were removed by a means other than gravity.
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I'll point out the pictures used in another post:

Gamolon said:
southcorestands-2.gif


wtc37spire.jpg
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I highlight these because this is a problem for you and Heiwa. It's a problem because structural failure of the core lower down the height of the buildings were not responsible for the collapse of the towers. The initiation within the impact regions poses another problem, since the remnant core structures extended more than half way to 2/3 of the way to the impact levels of either tower suggesting the collapse mechanism was entirely a function of the uppers floors failing and progressing the collapse downward. The two completely rules out any assisted measures. The columns having lost their lateral support from the floors could not sustain their own weight and buckled, and not a single explosive was necessary to assist it.

Your contention reveals to me (this is ignoring you other obvious idiocy) that you don't understand the principals behind engineering. You I might could give an excuse, which is probably why I'm giving you any attention at all. Heiwa claiming to be an engineer has none.
 
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Heiwa said:
Reason why a floor can hinge around a column is that there is a third element between floor/column, i.e. a connection, in this case some bolts and an L-angle.

So if the floor fails due to overload, the load drops away, and the broken pieces of the floor with no load on hit hinge around the connection. Any bracing remains in place.

If connections on one side are broken due to overload, the load drops away and the floor hinges around undamaged connections, where bracing again remains.

In all cases you must analyze where the lose end(s) of the floor end(s) up. Probably on a floor below. The broken floor hinges down around the column connection and the free end contacts a floor below.

Evidently all connections of a floor cannot fail simultaneously due to overload. The floor is connected to four outer walls and to four sides of an inner core structure and there are plenty, say 700, bolted connections. I know NIST suggests that 6 floors suddenly come lose - 4200 bolted connections failed - but that is the usual NIST nonsense.

I have described it all in my famous paper at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist.htm . More to come in the ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics soon.
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Yes, there is indeed "more to come." Tell us why all the real engineers at the ASCE journal are shills and religious fundamentalists.
 
bill smith said:
They were being removed somehow ahead of the collapse wave.
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Somehow, is your that explained in your delusion? What is making the steel disappear in your one way crush down can't happen no engineering needed I just noes its true delusional world where moronic delusions rule your day to day 911 failed idea club. You have not put any rational thinking into your massive failed delusional steel is gone theory to support Heiwa's pizza box kids on bed 2 mile drop failed engineering.

How much energy it released when the WTC tower collapses? You can't tell me! Your lack of physics, math and engineering skills allow you to accept idiotic ideas on 911 from Heiwa.
 
bill smith said:
Yes...meaning that they were sequentially not supposrting the building any more.
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So you think controlled demolition is a better explanation than the upper mass coming down floor right below and shearing or bending the truss supports downward and then taking that floor with it to the next floor, shearing or bending those truss supports, etc.?

What do the columns have to do with that type of collapse at that point if it's the floor trusses that are failing when the upper mass came down on them.

Is this thinking correct or no? Anyone?
 
Wow guys. Why are you still engaging this liar and charlatan? You continue to give him the attention he craves, piling onto this endless thread....

Last year he was quoted as claiming that Dr. Shyam Sunder of NIST was 'one of my peer reviewers' for his 'famous' paper. In fact, what had really happened was that he'd received an automated reply to an email he'd sent to Sunder and his boss, Richard Kayser, saying that it had been read.

Then he claimed it had been peer reviewed. I suppose he'll pretend he never made that claim. At the time he also wrote 'We will probably get a NIST/Sunder up-date sooner or later.' He was also wrong about this.

That was July 2008. Fast forward to July 2009. This year Heiwa created a phony challenge in which he fraudulently claimed to have 1 million dollars available to pay to whomever could meet the challenge.

Instead of putting him on ignore, and not feeding his enormous and twisted ego, you guys are keeping his lies, his con game and his ego alive.

Stop the madness and let these Heiwa threads wither and die, please. There are no new ideas presented here, just the same idiotic misrepresentations of engineering and the same rebuttals.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Everyone,

Sorry about my troll-feeding. I'm sure this has all been explained to Heiwa many times, ad nauseum.

I have no illusions that Heiwa will somehow "get it". It's just that I find this discussion interesting.
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Aggie,

Ditto. What part catches your attention?

Tom
 
Gamolon said:
Sweet! Thanks. I look forward to reading what requirements you think I don't meet.
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They are in post #1 of The Heiwa Challenge thread. Please note that no columns (primary load carrying elements) are below any floors. All the floors (secondary load carrying elements) are just hanging on the columns. It is like a bird cage!
 
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So the floors were much like the crossmembers/decking on ships, does nothing structurally and just hangs on the inside of the hull?
 
alienentity said:
Wow guys. Why are you still engaging this liar and charlatan? You continue to give him the attention he craves, piling onto this endless thread....
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I believe we´re waiting for the moment when we can count how many parts of facts & logic it takes before stupidity & ignorance is crushed and collapse in a pyroclastic flow into its own footprints .
Sadly I think the amount of reason needed is incalculable.
Stupidity is apparently indestructable.
 
Heiwa said:
The upper part cannot one-way crush down the lower part! See post #1.
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You are always very careful to use the verb "one-way crush down" when making your pronouncements.

Just to be clear: "One-way crush down" simply describes a top-down collapse; one that is initiated at or near the top of a structure? Correct?
 
Zorglub said:
I believe we´re waiting for the moment when we can count how many parts of facts & logic it takes before stupidity & ignorance is crushed and collapse in a pyroclastic flow into its own footprints .
Sadly I think the amount of reason needed is incalculable.
Stupidity is apparently indestructable.
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No matter how high facts and logic are dropped from they will just bounce off.
 
Heiwa said:
Reason why a floor can hinge around a column is that there is a third element between floor/column, i.e. a connection, in this case some bolts and an L-angle.

So if the floor fails due to overload, the load drops away, and the broken pieces of the floor with no load on hit hinge around the connection. Any bracing remains in place.

If connections on one side are broken due to overload, the load drops away and the floor hinges around undamaged connections, where bracing again remains.

In all cases you must analyze where the lose end(s) of the floor end(s) up. Probably on a floor below. The broken floor hinges down around the column connection and the free end contacts a floor below.
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And what about the large horizontal load that now develops at the hinge? If the column is now *free* in space above the hinge, will it not be shoved outwards? (or inwards, if we're talking about the core?)

And what about the column where the floor used to be connected? Potentially now unbraced for several stories in this direction?
 
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Grizzly Bear said:
I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you... nevertheless...



I'll point out the pictures used in another post:



I highlight these because this is a problem for you and Heiwa. It's a problem because structural failure of the core lower down the height of the buildings were not responsible for the collapse of the towers. The initiation within the impact regions poses another problem, since the remnant core structures extended more than half way to 2/3 of the way to the impact levels of either tower suggesting the collapse mechanism was entirely a function of the uppers floors failing and progressing the collapse downward. The two completely rules out any assisted measures. The columns having lost their lateral support from the floors could not sustain their own weight and buckled, and not a single explosive was necessary to assist it.

Your contention reveals to me (this is ignoring you other obvious idiocy) that you don't understand the principals behind engineering. You I might could give an excuse, which is probably why I'm giving you any attention at all. Heiwa claiming to be an engineer has none.
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Nah...perhaps the explosives did not detonate at their appointed time.
In any case the section still standing would have completely gutted Bazant's 'upper block'. The fact that this had happened appeared to make no difference at all to collapse progression. It was almost as if they were not there at all.
 
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Heiwa said:
They are in post #1 of The Heiwa Challenge thread. Please note that no columns (primary load carrying elements) are below any floors. All the floors (secondary load carrying elements) are just hanging on the columns. It is like a bird cage!
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Funny, but isn't that what my model is? My "dowel" columns are NOT below and floors and the floor "weights" are hanging on the "thumbtack" supports.

Not sure I see you're point. Can you elaborate please?
 
bill smith said:
Nah...perhaps the explosives did not detonate at their appointed time.
In any case the section still standing would have completely gutted Bazant's 'upper block'. The fact that this had happened appeared to make no difference at all to collpse progression. It was almost as if they were not there at all.
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But you keep saying that the ENTIRE building below the failure zone was crushed. How were the columns "crushed"?
 
Gamolon said:
But you keep saying that the ENTIRE building below the failure zone was crushed. How were the columns "crushed"?
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I on't believe that they were crushed o course. I believe they were removed from their normal support function in a sequential fashion by devious means.
 
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