Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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Is it? I clearly say that the intact floors are just hanging on the columns; like pictures on a wall.

Then you are contradicting yourself on the same page as you say this also:
Section C consists of 14 horizontal elements/floors, each with mass m as section A, stacked on top of each other with vertical support elements in between of height h. Total mass of C is 14 m. It is 52 meters tall.

So what "vertical support elements in between the floors" are you speaking of? The perimeter columns are AROUND the outside perimeter of the floor and the core columns are AROUND the inside perimeter.
 
Heiwa, that makes no sense. At all. Relating the L brackets to nails in a wall. Kinda like relating the WTC to boxes, fruit, eggs, or anything else unless you are comparing WTC to another building with the same design as WTC.

Dont bring up- Meridian Tower, ESB, or any of the other towers that you "truthers" want to bring up.
 
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Heiwa's babbling again. It goes in cycles.

Soon he will disappear for a few days, then return and make the same unsupported arguments all over again.

I know.

It's just maddening. I am not an engineer, but I sure as hell can understand what the heck happened.

The term "crush" is not what happened to the columns. The mass that collapsed, the upper 1/10th, hit the truss connections, not the columns. The truss connections are what took the brunt of the downward force and either bent downward and sheared off. If the columns were constructed to uphold the massive weight of the floors and elements above then wouldn't the failure occur at the connections, those being the weakest part of the structure?
 
Nope. I'm sure this has been explained to you, but I will try again.

The top item crushes the item below it.

There are now two items in motion.

Then the top two items crush the item below them.

There are now three items in motion.

Then the top three items crush the item below them.

There are now four items in motion.

Then the top four items crush the item below them.

...should I go on? Or can you figure it out from here?

Is that not the famous 'pancake collapse' that NIST dismissed ? Are you saying that NIST made an error ? If not we are back to my original statement of 'the top 5% of a building can never crush the other identically constructed 95% of the building down to the ground by gravity alone'.
 
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Is that not the famous 'pancake collapse' that NIST dismissed ? Are you saying that NIST made an error ? If not we are back to my original statement of 'the top 5% of a building can never crush the other idebtically constructed 95% of the building down to the ground by gravity alone'.

Are you claiming that NIST says the core columns and perimeter columns were "crushed" like pop cans by the upper collapsing mass? Meaning that the were originally 30 foot lengths and ended up being "accordianed" 10 foot lengths?
 
Is that not the famous 'pancake collapse' that NIST dismissed ? Are you saying that NIST made an error ? If not we are back to my original statement of 'the top 5% of a building can never crush the other identically constructed 95% of the building down to the ground by gravity alone'.

I'm sure you've been told this as well, but I will try again.

NIST was talking about the collapse initiation. The collapse itself was clearly a pancake collapse, but it was not the mechanism by which the top part of the building started to move, which is what triggered the chain of events.
 
Are you claiming that NIST says the core columns and perimeter columns were "crushed" like pop cans by the upper collapsing mass? Meaning that the were originally 30 foot lengths and ended up being "accordianed" 10 foot lengths?

No...NIST dismissed the notion I suspect because of the core columns whose existence they had not been stressing to say the least. they had been fairly well ignoring them up till then. It was as if they suddenly realised the significance of the 47 mighty upstanding columns.
 
No...NIST dismissed the notion I suspect because of the core columns whose existence they had not been stressing to say the least. they had been fairly well ignoring them up till then. It was as if they suddenly realised the significance of the 47 mighty upstanding columns.

You "suspect"?

Why not read the report and find out?
 
I know.

It's just maddening. I am not an engineer, but I sure as hell can understand what the heck happened.

The term "crush" is not what happened to the columns. The mass that collapsed, the upper 1/10th, hit the truss connections, not the columns. The truss connections are what took the brunt of the downward force and either bent downward and sheared off. If the columns were constructed to uphold the massive weight of the floors and elements above then wouldn't the failure occur at the connections, those being the weakest part of the structure?

Be honest now Gamelon and tell me if you think the same would hapen in this simple model as hapened in WTC1. If not can you tell me why the principles are not very similar ?

Take 240 long spaghetti sticks to act as as the perimeter columns with an aditional 47 x 4 sticks to represent the stronger core spaced in a rectangle to cover about 60% of the centre of the structure. Then you have 110 x compressed glue and superfine sugar floors made to scale with holes drilled to correspond to the column locations. Then each floor is carefully slid down over he spaghetti columns and glued into position corresponding to the 110 floors of the WTC Towers. Allow to dry. Then anchor the column bases in a solid surface. Allow to dry.

Finally, lift up the top (and lightest) 10% (C) of the model and drop it say 6'' onto the lower 90% (A).
 
No...NIST dismissed the notion I suspect because of the core columns whose existence they had not been stressing to say the least. they had been fairly well ignoring them up till then. It was as if they suddenly realised the significance of the 47 mighty upstanding columns.
Well then please explain the following quote from you that you made previously:
Is that not the famous 'pancake collapse' that NIST dismissed ? Are you saying that NIST made an error ? If not we are back to my original statement of 'the top 5% of a building can never crush the other identically constructed 95% of the building down to the ground by gravity alone'.
If you are not claiming that the perimeter columns and core columns were NOT crushed, then what elements were crushed in the collapse.

What possible resistance to the downward collapse would the core colums and perimeter columns provide against the falling upper mass when both sets of columns were on connected to the OUTSIDE perimeter of the floors and the INSIDE perimeter of the floors. The collapsing mass would have hit the "L" shaped connections used for the floor trusses and either bend them downward or sheared them off.

I will again use my analogy that I used before.

If I pound a perimeter column in the ground, weld an "L" shaped connection to it, and then hit the upper part of the "L" shape with a sledgehammer, where is the most stress going to be? Does my swing "crush" the perimeter column?
 
Be honest now Gamelon and tell me if you think the same would hapen in this simple model as hapened in WTC1. If not can you tell me why the principles are not very similar ?

Take 240 long spaghetti sticks to act as as the perimeter columns with an aditional 47 x 4 sticks to represent the stronger core spaced in a rectangle to cover about 60% of the centre of the structure. Then you have 110 x compressed glue and superfine sugar floors made to scale with holes drilled to correspond to the column locations. Then each floor is carefully slid down over he spaghetti columns and glued into position corresponding to the 110 floors of the WTC Towers. Allow to dry. Then anchor the column bases in a solid surface. Allow to dry.

Finally, lift up the top (and lightest) 10% (C) of the model and drop it say 6'' onto the lower 90% (A).

How about this model.

Let's take a 25lb weight used for weight lifting. The round weights with a hole in the middle that can be slipped onto a weight lifting bar. Lets get 6, 1" diameter wooden dowels and pound them into the ground around the perimeter of the weight mentioned above. Let's take a single 1" diameter wooden dowel and pound it into the ground in the center of the ring we just created.

Now let's slip one of the 25lb weights mentioned onto the center wooden dowel down to about an inch from the ground. We'll put one thumbtack (the kind with the plastic head on them, not the flat heads) in each of the perimeter wooden dowels right below the weight and put two thumbtacks, opposite one another on the center wooden dowel.

We'll build our tower up 40 feet high with a "floor" weight every foot.

We'll then created a seperate section the same way, but only 1/10th the size, which would be 4 weights (or 100lbs). We will then position the 1/10th section above the 40 foot tower we created using a dowel to center it above.

We then drop the 1/10th section down the centering dowel from a height of 10 feet above.

What do you think would happen? Are the "thumbtack" connections going to arrest the upper part and stop it from bringing everything down the the ground?
 
Is that not the famous 'pancake collapse' that NIST dismissed? Are you saying that NIST made an error?
FEMA originally hypothesized that the collapse initiation was dependent upon floor failures within the impact region resulting in a significant loss of lateral support for the columns on the impact floors. NIST discarded it as an initiation mechanism, this in no way relates to the collapse progression which very clearly involved the floors pancaking all the way to ground level. I honestly don't know how Bill, how can you expect to have any discussion when you have not read a single piece of the report you're criticizing? If you weren't basing your claim on ignorance then you would more than qualify as a liar.


If not we are back to my original statement of 'the top 5% of a building can never crush the other identically constructed 95% of the building down to the ground by gravity alone'.

Parroting Bjorkman without the slightest idea of what you're discussing. Typical... Not a single engineering publication I've read from the ASCE to the steel designer's manual places any significance in this idiocy. Nobody cares what yours or Heiwa's uninformed opinions are because collapse studies aren't based on how big a section has to be in order to result in the collapse of another section. They are based entirely on load paths, load capacity, and other matters relating directly to how the building is realistically able to perform.

The steel designer's manual refers to the circumstances observed in the WTC as accidental loading. Conditions in which the loads exerted on a structure are not expected the be a concern during the building's expected life time. Most designs try to take some incidents into account to ensure that the minimum damage is done, but the towers were never -- EVER designed for the prospect that an entire floor would lose it's integrity leaving all of the structure above that point subject to falling.
 
How about this model.

Let's take a 25lb weight used for weight lifting. The round weights with a hole in the middle that can be slipped onto a weight lifting bar. Lets get 6, 1" diameter wooden dowels and pound them into the ground around the perimeter of the weight mentioned above. Let's take a single 1" diameter wooden dowel and pound it into the ground in the center of the ring we just created.

Now let's slip one of the 25lb weights mentioned onto the center wooden dowel down to about an inch from the ground. We'll put one thumbtack (the kind with the plastic head on them, not the flat heads) in each of the perimeter wooden dowels right below the weight and put two thumbtacks, opposite one another on the center wooden dowel.

We'll build our tower up 40 feet high with a "floor" weight every foot.

We'll then created a seperate section the same way, but only 1/10th the size, which would be 4 weights (or 100lbs). We will then position the 1/10th section above the 40 foot tower we created using a dowel to center it above.

We then drop the 1/10th section down the centering dowel from a height of 10 feet above.

What do you think would happen? Are the "thumbtack" connections going to arrest the upper part and stop it from bringing everything down the the ground?

Well it strikes me that the centre dowel would remain standing. The same would apply for other upstanding elements.
 
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So now we are using spagetti and sugar!! Holy....I cant say, it filters it, but, imagin the word truck, it rhymes with that.

Do not try to use anything from your kitchen to compare to WTC, it doesn't work. Even 1000 spagetti sticks.

Idiotic at best. I think he got his "degree" from CJBU, Or Cracker Jack Box University.
 
FEMA originally hypothesized that the collapse initiation was dependent upon floor failures within the impact region resulting in a significant loss of lateral support for the columns on the impact floors. NIST discarded it as an initiation mechanism, this in no way relates to the collapse progression which very clearly involved the floors pancaking all the way to ground level. I honestly don't know how Bill, how can you expect to have any discussion when you have not read a single piece of the report you're criticizing? If you weren't basing your claim on ignorance then you would more than qualify as a liar.




Parroting Bjorkman without the slightest idea of what you're discussing. Typical... Not a single engineering publication I've read from the ASCE to the steel designer's manual places any significance in this idiocy. Nobody cares what yours or Heiwa's uninformed opinions are because collapse studies aren't based on how big a section has to be in order to result in the collapse of another section. They are based entirely on load paths, load capacity, and other matters relating directly to how the building is realistically able to perform.

The steel designer's manual refers to the circumstances observed in the WTC as accidental loading. Conditions in which the loads exerted on a structure are not expected the be a concern during the building's expected life time. Most designs try to take some incidents into account to ensure that the minimum damage is done, but the towers were never -- EVER designed for the prospect that an entire floor would lose it's integrity leaving all of the structure above that point subject to falling.

Yes,,,very iteresting. Would you care to answer the same question I asked Gamelon regarding the spaghetti model ? I won't be upset or surprised if you don't. lol
 
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It feels so stupid to have to argue the reason why the top item in a stack of 20 identical items will never crush the other 19 down flat with the ground using gravity alone. Just the fact that nobody can design any structure to demonstrate that it can happen or the fact that it has never happened in the entire history of worldwide construction either before or after 9/11 should be enough to end any debate.

So when somebody (or apparently almost everybody on the jref ) says it can happen without providing example or precedent you can guess what that tells me. That fact is just as self-evident as the fact that the top item in a stack of 20 identical items will never crush the other 19 down to the ground by gravity alone..

What school of engineering taught you to be totally ignorant on physics, math, and all science concepts?
 
Be honest now Gamelon and tell me if you think the same would hapen in this simple model as hapened in WTC1. If not can you tell me why the principles are not very similar ?

Take 240 long spaghetti sticks to act as as the perimeter columns with an aditional 47 x 4 sticks to represent the stronger core spaced in a rectangle to cover about 60% of the centre of the structure. Then you have 110 x compressed glue and superfine sugar floors made to scale with holes drilled to correspond to the column locations. Then each floor is carefully slid down over he spaghetti columns and glued into position corresponding to the 110 floors of the WTC Towers. Allow to dry. Then anchor the column bases in a solid surface. Allow to dry.

Finally, lift up the top (and lightest) 10% (C) of the model and drop it say 6'' onto the lower 90% (A).

This fails the scale test. The columns can survive without the floors in place. This is not true in reality. The floors were required to brace the floor trusses which braced the columns.
 
This fails the scale test. The columns can survive without the floors in place. This is not true in reality. The floors were required to brace the floor trusses which braced the columns.

Scale everything up to full size . what happens then ?
 
Well it strikes me that the centre dowel would remain standing. The same would apply for other upstanding elements.

So let me get this straight.

You are agreeing that the "thumbtack connections" would fail in my model above and that the "floor" would all come to the ground.

So you expect 1300' or so of vertical perimeter columns to stay erect even though the horizontal floor trusses have been stripped from them?

Really?

Even with the chaotic collapse happening inside? I suppose none of the falling mass would have pushed the perimeter columns outward eh?
 
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