Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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Isn't it a shame that none of the steel from WTC 7 and over 99.5% of it from the towers was scrapped and smelted before it could be analyzed to determine if it was just "corrosion"?

Fresh Kills... where the vast majority was examined after removal from ground zero. The samples shown above display no characteristics I find surprising at all... and fairly benign processes are well within viability. We can go back to this some other time... I don't feel like derailing any further, particularly against half-truths.
 
Isn't it a shame that none of the steel from WTC 7 and over 99.5% of it from the towers was scrapped and smelted before it could be analyzed to determine if it was just "corrosion"?

I'm not sure where you're headed here. You do realize that the NIST report on the towers covered this?
 
Fresh Kills... where the vast majority was examined after removal from ground zero. The samples shown above display no characteristics I find surprising at all... and fairly benign processes are well within viability. We can go back to this some other time... I don't feel like derailing any further, particularly against half-truths.

There was no testing done at Freshkills. What was done there was simply visual and does not qualify as a forensic analysis. There was also no attempt to identify where the pieces came from in the buildings and piece together a sequence of failure.
 
I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. You probably can't but that is the beauty of posting anonymously with a pseudoname on an Internet forum.

Corrosion looks like corrosion and blast damage looks like blast damage, and just about any fire fighter would know the difference at a glance. Why test for what has left no sign of its presence when there was an observed phenomenon which, to every rational human being, perfectly accounts for every result observed?
 
Corrosion looks like corrosion and blast damage looks like blast damage, and just about any fire fighter would know the difference at a glance. Why test for what has left no sign of its presence when there was an observed phenomenon which, to every rational human being, perfectly accounts for every result observed?

I think the comments were directed towards the possible use of thermite not being investigated concerning the pieces of steel identified as having intergranular melting in FEMA Appendix C.
 
I think the comments were directed towards the possible use of thermite not being investigated concerning the pieces of steel identified as having intergranular melting in FEMA Appendix C.

Wow, old news. That piece of metal is still at Worcester Polytechnic Institute that has had it since the beginning. One of the scientists with access to it was on the BBC Building 7 program. He says it's not because of thermite, but because of conditions under the Pile.
 
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And you are viewed as a sophist who often provides no basis for what he says and when he does leaves out important details which are obvious to an engineer.

Since you are talking about Gordon Ross here everyone should also get a chance to see what he thinks about you. They can here http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id5.html

Nobody has discredited what I have said or wrote. Just another case of you making baseless claims.

Hit the road toad.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137881 What you just wrote was discredited some time ago.

You were discredited a year ago: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102813 Remember that? Have you figured out what "sway" means yet?

Edit: Hell, I just looked through the thread on Ross again, YOU POSTED in it. Have you forgotten about it so soon?
 
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I think the comments were directed towards the possible use of thermite not being investigated concerning the pieces of steel identified as having intergranular melting in FEMA Appendix C.
Since when did thermite leave etched, vermicular erosion patterns on steel?

It melts steel. This is not rocket science.

Did you also not read that some of the same steel was etched paper-thin and had started to curl like a scroll?

Thermite does not do that.

Sulphuric acid is quite another matter, and there was one hell of a lot of that present in the steaming pile.

There was also abundant copper in close proximity to the steel in the presence of sulphuric acid. This produces copper sulphate.

Now, go back to your high school chemistry class. What happens when you dip a bright steel nail into a solution of copper sulphate? It deposits metalic copper onto the steel.

I have also seen various acids thin steel in such a way that it curls up along one edge.

You really need to draw from a wider variety of experiences when you try to contradict trained investigators. Some of them, even simple fire fighters with a bit of arson investigations training are going to catch stuff that an over-specialized engineer will miss.

That's why they have teams instead of individuals looking at everything.
 
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I don't see how you can say that with a straight face. You probably can't but that is the beauty of posting anonymously with a pseudoname on an Internet forum.

You might check out NCSTAR 1-3C, Section 6.3.4 before becoming hostile.
 
Tony, you asked earlier 'I would be interesting to hear how you think a jolt(s), of the size and magnitude necessary, could take place without being visible.'

A glib answer to that would be along the lines of 'the jolt would be much more difficult to detect than explosive cutting charges removing 10 stories of perimeter columns'.

The main problems with detecting the jolt are fairly well understood, I believe. They include:
1) resolution limitations of video footage
2) frame-rate limitations of video footage
3) methods of sampling and calculating expected artifacts

There are several areas where errors in your method are possible. That's why, even though you were unable to detect the jolt you were looking for, it is not certain that it didn't happen.

What then? I would suggest you identify more closely the margins of error at each step, in consultation with video analysis experts. It may very well turn out that your method is not capable of detecting a very short deceleration. I don't know that, but I'm skeptical.

One possible way to test the methodology would be to create an animation which could simulate the effect you're looking for very precisely, then subject it to your protocols. You'd have to process the video so it matched the actual video as closely as possible.

However, the Bazant model which you're examining is an approximation that doesn't really attempt to account for all the variables you're interested in - ie the 31g figure is theoretical and not realistically expected because of the asymmetry of the collapse, and the variables of pre-weakened structure of the upper block.

As such, a much more sophisticated model would be necessary if you really wanted to calculate a more precise figure for the jolt. It might very well be that the 'jolt' is different in nature from what you or Bazant have envisioned.
I don't know.

But I'm not making the accusation of explosives, vast conspiracies, and such, based on little or no solid evidence. That's exactly what I think you're doing, as you know. I think you've got a valid idea, I don't think you've met a high enough standard of proof to say that your observations are correct.

I don't think you can blame people like me for expecting a very high standard of proof for the accusations the 9/11 truth movement is making. If you were a NASA engineer, working to send a team to Mars on a multi-year mission, I bet you'd leave no stone unturned to make certain your work was flawless. You'd probably try to recruit the opinions of top experts in every area under your responsibility, and cut no corners.

That's because the lives of a handful of astronauts would depend on your competence.

The responsibility you're attempting to assume, that of creating irrefutable scientific proof to bring down a vast and powerful conspiracy which permeates your entire government, defense industries and god only knows what else - is a monumentally more daunting and demanding one. (I honestly don't think most of you have thought through the implications of what you're attempting)

No offense, but you guys are not up to the task. Who would be? It would be very difficult indeed to find real evidence of something that never happened - which is the most probable scenario. In terms of a scientific approach, you've screwed the pooch by reaching a verdict (controlled demolition) and then looking around for anything that might possibly support it.
IMHO you truthers become so accustomed to ignoring or rationalizing away contrary evidence that it's become an ingrained habit. You've also become systematically hostile to any strong science not supportive of your movement, and thus are not able to benefit from a lot of the knowledge that would otherwise be at your disposal.

Anyway, that's just a few thoughts on the matter.
 
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Put some science in that or stop it. Any construction worker can tell you that when you over-load a floor, it can break. The floors above the impact zone were failing and over-loading lower floors before the structure started to move. When they moved, more floors had to break. It is just in the nature of concrete to breeak. It becomes a compact mass on the next floor, with a bit of kinetic energy behind it.

One thing that seems to be missing from the "missing jolt" hypothesis is that disintegrated concrete and steel from the floors, as well as broken column sections, could have undergone considerable deceleration jolting when impacting other floors, and none of that jolting would have been visible in the falling roof-line. Since that debris would be free to fall at true g after breaking that floor loose -- not subject to slowing down to buckle columns -- I don't see any reason that that wave of destruction couldn't have preceded the main part of the semi-rigid top block, such that the falling block simply had to buckle and/or push the no-longer-restrained columns out of the way, rather than crush them with the force necessary to buckle a restrained column. If so, the top block could have experienced a relatively smooth fall at less than g, sort of like it was falling through a liquid.
 
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One thing that seems to be missing from the "missing jolt" hypothesis is that disintegrated concrete and steel from the floors, as well as broken column sections, could have undergone considerable deceleration jolting when impacting other floors, and none of that jolting would have been visible in the falling roof-line. Since that debris would be free to fall at true g after breaking that floor loose -- not subject to slowing down to buckle columns -- I don't see any reason that that wave of destruction couldn't have preceded the main part of the semi-rigid top block, such that the falling block simply had to buckle and/or push the no-longer-restrained columns out of the way, rather than crush them with the force necessary to buckle a restrained column. If so, the top block could have experienced a relatively smooth fall at less than g, sort of like it was falling through a liquid.

I'd say this is pretty spot on. At some point in the collapse the upper section was almost completely destroyed (truss hat?), any mass would have been deflected away from the core, but still contained by the exterior.

It seems simple when you actually apply what you know by way of NIST, and what was observed. It seems the truth movement gets distracted from what is happening in front of their faces looking for things that aren't really there.
 
One thing that seems to be missing from the "missing jolt" hypothesis is that disintegrated concrete and steel from the floors, as well as broken column sections, could have undergone considerable deceleration jolting when impacting other floors, and none of that jolting would have been visible in the falling roof-line. Since that debris would be free to fall at true g after breaking that floor loose -- not subject to slowing down to buckle columns -- I don't see any reason that that wave of destruction couldn't have preceded the main part of the semi-rigid top block, such that the falling block simply had to buckle and/or push the no-longer-restrained columns out of the way, rather than crush them with the force necessary to buckle a restrained column. If so, the top block could have experienced a relatively smooth fall at less than g, sort of like it was falling through a liquid.

Exactly as I said to Tony. There were several floors of weakened structure - it wasn't a solid, rigid block, but it still had all the mass and momentum to overcome the strength of the impacted floors below.
That may have created an increased crush-up effect, which would only result in a denser collapse wave.

The Bazant model is only designed to demonstrate that the overall force overcame the design strength of lower floors, if I understand it correctly.
 
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You explain it wrong each time. It is hard to believe that you are an engineer. As the impact floors give way, the floors above them collapse. The entire mass falls on the next floor and the floor after that. As they fall, they gain weight and momentum. Obviously, nothing can stop them from crashing through each and every floor until the entire building is gone. You are playing some sort of dumb trick when you say that the collapse is "arrested." What arrests it? Magic?

Sorry, you are just repeating the famous pancake theori, where individual elements (pancakes!) of small mass in on structure C suddenly gets loose (?) and drop on ONE element in structure A and overload that ONE element so its joints (600!) inside the structure A breaks ... and that this is repeated 97 times. Elements gain weight and the building A is gone - LOL! While the columns stand!!
Pls - structures do not behave like that.
 
Sorry, you are just repeating the famous pancake theori, where individual elements (pancakes!) of small mass in on structure C suddenly gets loose (?) and drop on ONE element in structure A and overload that ONE element so its joints (600!) inside the structure A breaks ... and that this is repeated 97 times. Elements gain weight and the building A is gone - LOL! While the columns stand!!
Pls - structures do not behave like that.

Yes they do, you're just in denial.
 
Sorry, you are just repeating the famous pancake theori, where individual elements (pancakes!) of small mass in on structure C suddenly gets loose (?) and drop on ONE element in structure A and overload that ONE element so its joints (600!) inside the structure A breaks ... and that this is repeated 97 times. Elements gain weight and the building A is gone - LOL! While the columns stand!!
Pls - structures do not behave like that.

Did you see this yesterday Heiwa ? Some of the core columns on the 86th floor in WTC1 were 'blown out' prior to collapse initiation. About 11 floors below the impact zone. Is that not absolute proof that something was happening to the core colmns that had noting to do with he plane ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSV...x.php?showtopic=14700&feature=player_embedded Core blown out 86th WTC1
 
Did you see this yesterday Heiwa ? Some of the core columns on the 86th floor in WTC1 were 'blown out' prior to collapse initiation. About 11 floors below the impact zone. Is that not absolute proof that something was happening to the core colmns that had noting to do with he plane ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSVsid7eKE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpilotsfor911truth%2Eorg%2Fforum%2F%2Findex%2Ephp%3Fshowtopic%3D14700&feature=player_embedded Core blown out 86th WTC1


ETA: disregard first response. I had to turn my speakers all the way up to hear the audio. Still, this is hardly evidence supermagicnanothermite. I'll ask the same thing to you that I ask the "basement explosions before the impacts" people: If the building would fall more than an hour after these supernanomagicthermite cutter charges were triggered, what role did these particular pyrotechnics play in the demolition of the building?
 
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Did you see this yesterday Heiwa ? Some of the core columns on the 86th floor in WTC1 were 'blown out' prior to collapse initiation. About 11 floors below the impact zone. Is that not absolute proof that something was happening to the core colmns that had noting to do with he plane ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSV...x.php?showtopic=14700&feature=player_embedded Core blown out 86th WTC1

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/doc/pac1TowerA/A-A-143_3.png

Very strange - There are three escape stairwells down from 86th floor and he could not reach any - fire doors locked!

The most solid core columns - the outer core corner ones - are here located in what appears to be office space and not public entry halls.

A plane impact 10 floors higher up should have been felt on 86th floor as a sideways displacement 1 m and then back 2 m during say 5 seconds and throwing people and loose furniture into walls, etc.

The unfortunate caller seems quite calm, &c. He is not worried about a one-way crush down of the whole tower and he should not be!
 
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http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/doc/pac1TowerA/A-A-143_3.png

Very strange - There are three escape stairwells down from 86th floor and he could not reach any - fire doors locked!

The most solid core columns - the outer core corner ones - are here located in what appears to be office space and not public entry halls.

A plane impact 10 floors higher up should have been felt on 86th floor as a sideways displacement 1 m and then back 2 m during say 5 seconds and throwing people and loose furniture into walls, etc.

The unfortunate caller seems quite calm, &c. He is not worried about a one-way crush down of the whole tower and he should not be!

I was surprised myself that he was using terminology like 'the core' already back on 9/11.
 
I was surprised myself that he was using terminology like 'the core' already back on 9/11.

He mentions core twice. But he is trapped. Cannot reach the emergency escape stairwells 'in the core' or believes there is no real danger so he stays where he is.
The plane impact/explosion does not seem to have caused a lot of motion on floor 86.
Why doesn't he say - I and the other person cannot take the stairs down, &c. Why does he mention core?
 
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