Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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I have presented several structures and dropped a part C of it on remainder part A (C<10A) from various heights. No collapse as the energy applied was too small or the strain energy absorbed too big. Just bounces! Increasing the drop height (energy input to become BIG) C is always destroyed first as it can absorb too little strain energy and A is not really one-way crushed down.

Heiwa ----

If I drop a living mouse 2x its body length onto solid ground, will it be seriously hurt?

If I drop a living cat 2x its body length onto solid ground, what will happen to the animal?

If I drop a living elephant 2x its body length onto solid ground, what will happen to the animal?

I await your frivolous reply, which will likely ignore all known engineering principles. Or you could shock us all and actually address the question. If you do give a serious answer, then we can proceed.
 
Hey KreeL, if you are so confident in "heiwa," how do you explain his non-response to the following:
...
And, just for kicks, can you answer those questions?

Is it possible KreeL and Heiwa are the same person? I only think this because of the similarity in the accusations of religious fundamentalism from both of them.
 
Yes, when a big ship collides with something more kinetic energy and momentum may be involved than when WTC 1 top part drops on the lower part. So it is quite helpful to compare what happens. And the first thing you observe is that weaker structural elements adjacent to the collision interface fail first.

Weaker structural elements are definitely not crushing down stronger structural elements as suggested in WTC 1 (thin floors crushing strong columns).

So you have to work from there, e.g. http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm .

If you find any nonsense there, something completely fabricated or plain wrong, just copy paste it and tell what has to be corrected.


It's funny that you never have to read very far in your posts to find the nonsense. Nobody says that the collapsing mass of the building CRUSHED the columns. The columns BROKE at the welds. You are aware of this, aren't you?
 
The faithbased consensus is that they don't understand The Heiwa Challenge{tm}. In fact mackey is probably the only one that DOES understand it, and he won't attempt to make a model because his credibility can't take too many more hits.

For you others, like the one directly above this post. If you don't understand it, you don't have to read it. If you don't read it, you can still copy and paste the post? JREF 101.


I haven't noticed any hits to Mr. Mackey's credibility. Can you tell us how his credibility has been challenged by people who do nothing but tell lies and invent absurd, fantastic parodies of science?
 
Heiwa ----

If I drop a living mouse 2x its body length onto solid ground, will it be seriously hurt?

If I drop a living cat 2x its body length onto solid ground, what will happen to the animal?

If I drop a living elephant 2x its body length onto solid ground, what will happen to the animal?

I await your frivolous reply, which will likely ignore all known engineering principles. Or you could shock us all and actually address the question. If you do give a serious answer, then we can proceed.


I tried comparing elephants to mice and Heiwa acted like he couldn't understand what I was getting at. Maybe he is faking and he really does realize how absurd his theories are, or maybe he really is as dense as he appears. Only he knows for sure. In either case, I'm starting to agree with the poster who wrote that trying to reason with him wastes everyone's time.
 
Government conspiracy? I would say that NIST is incompetent to explain the WTC 1 structural destruction. Energy applied exceeded the strain energy that the structure could absorb and global collapse ensued! Nonsense. Embarassing. 100's of NIST engineers making fools of themselves! Kaiser, Sunder, Gross, etc. And nobody really reacts! ASCE is silent like a mouse.

I have presented several structures and dropped a part C of it on remainder part A (C<10A) from various heights. No collapse as the energy applied was too small or the strain energy absorbed too big. Just bounces! Increasing the drop height (energy input to become BIG) C is always destroyed first as it can absorb too little strain energy and A is not really one-way crushed down.

And that's Why a one-way Crush down is not possible for any structure of any size and scale. I think it is time to close this thread now. More than 1000 posts ... and all sensibile posts agree with topic.

It seem only religious fundamentalist integrists are still believing that a one way Crush down is possible ... and why not? They really have funny beliefs.

Your statement that HUNDREDS of NIST engineers and scientists are making fools of themselves tells you what you need to know. You are too blinded by your politics to see it. Yes, hundreds, even thousands, of real engineers see the matter one way while you see it another way. But ALL of them are wrong. You can't accept or even understand any of the corrections to your errors provided by the engineers here. So, who is right? Real scientists who test their work constantly or a guy who assumes his own infallibility? When you regard the rest of the world, including people who are smarter and know much more than you do, as being on the wrong foot, it's time for a little self-examination. But you've never attempted that.
 
NIST performed their requirements exactly like Baghdad Bob. Interesting to note, both had faithbased followers.
 
NIST performed their requirements exactly like Baghdad Bob. Interesting to note, both had faithbased followers.

You know what's ironic here? If I am to side with you and Heiwa on this matter, then I have to ask you what exactly it is i am supposed to believe.
 
A million dollars isn't worth your time?

It would cost more than a million dollars to make a model that would have anywhere near the same physical properties of the towers.

Or maybe you are intelligent enough to know that it can't be done and don't want to waste your time. Either way, you fail to prove "his hypothesis is wrong, his physics are garbage, and he won't listen".

Neither he nor you have any room to talk about other people's intelligence. We are intelligent enough to know that the joints of Heiwa's models in no way resemble the joints of the WTC. He made the more absurd claim, i.e., thatthere is an arrresting mechanism, so it is up to him to demonstrate that there is an arresting mechanism.

"Dwop pawt C on pawt A durrrr fwum a hite of H, see it if bounces! wheeeee!" - This must be some more of the faithbased babytalk. You even fail at being annoying because it's kinda cute.

This mockery of the style of twoofers accurately reflects the level of maturity we see in twoofer theories.
 
Take The Heiwa Challenge{tm} then. Should be easy enough for you to do. You claim his hypothesis is wrong, his physics are garbage, and he won't listen.

Prove it;)... and get rich!

Who determined the Heiwa hypothesis (other than Heiwa himself) is empiricaly correct?
 
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And that's Why a one-way Crush down is not possible for any structure of any size and scale. I think it is time to close this thread now. More than 1000 posts ... and all sensibile posts agree with topic.

Utter rubbish. The Balzac-Vitry demolition proves you wrong.

Further, you just completely ignore the fact that the collapses occurred not because the columns were crushed, but because the floors that held them in place were smashed loose by an over-load.

Your modelling of the towers as ships colliding is BS because when ships collide, all the momentum built up over mioles of acceleration is spent in the initial impact, and there is not time for the screws, turning at full speed to restore that momentum, thus leaving the weight of the ships useless for further work. When two ships, their momentum spent, sit nose-to-nose, the weight of either is irrelevant to the other. Only if one still has power (and most engineers will immediately disengage the engines after a collision) does either continue to effect the other. If one ship has power, it can move the other.

The stuff that fell from one floor to another in the towers continued to effect the floors below because it represented a massive overload, even as a static load. That stuff was continuing to fall from above after the static overload limit was reached made it dynamic.

Once your ships have collided and stopped driving forward, all forces, if any, that they create are statiuc.

You get a ham-and-cheese-sandwich-at-a-Bar-Mitzvah fail.
 
Utter rubbish. The Balzac-Vitry demolition proves you wrong.

Further, you just completely ignore the fact that the collapses occurred not because the columns were crushed, but because the floors that held them in place were smashed loose by an over-load.

Your modelling of the towers as ships colliding is BS because when ships collide, all the momentum built up over mioles of acceleration is spent in the initial impact, and there is not time for the screws, turning at full speed to restore that momentum, thus leaving the weight of the ships useless for further work. When two ships, their momentum spent, sit nose-to-nose, the weight of either is irrelevant to the other. Only if one still has power (and most engineers will immediately disengage the engines after a collision) does either continue to effect the other. If one ship has power, it can move the other.

The stuff that fell from one floor to another in the towers continued to effect the floors below because it represented a massive overload, even as a static load. That stuff was continuing to fall from above after the static overload limit was reached made it dynamic.

Once your ships have collided and stopped driving forward, all forces, if any, that they create are statiuc.

You get a ham-and-cheese-sandwich-at-a-Bar-Mitzvah fail.

Sorry the Balzac-Vitry demolition is not a one-way crush down of any type. It is a controlled demolition of say 25% of the structure to initiate a drop of an upper part that is then destroyed in contact with a lower part, the latter not really totally destroyed. Thus no upper part is one-way crushing down anything there.

The challenge here is to produce a theoretical structural model in 3-D where an upper part C of said structure will one-way crush down the lower part A when C is dropped on A, where A>10C. Part A is supposed to be fixed to ground. As encouragement I have offered $1M to anybody who can produce said theoretical model.
This encouragement requires some clarifications, e.g. what constitues a one way crush down by part C of part A.

The structure A+C must first of all be initially stable, i.e. A carries C and all elements in the structure are under internal loads. Then C is detached from A and dropped on A from a specified height, e.g. a proportion of the height of C, let's say 1/10 of C or 1/100 of A.

The structural elements making up part A, there are both vertical and horizontal elements as structure is 3-D, each having a mass, must become detached from one another, so that they no longer represent the original structure. And this shall only be done by part C assisted by gravity.
Elements becoming loose in part A due to part C contacting them may assist in the one-way crush down.

The task includes to describe the initial energy available, the forces that develop at contact C/A, the deformations then produced and how failures of elements then develop. You should be able to trace the path of failures through part A so that all elements in A get detached from one another.

In another thread, The Heiwa Challenge, the task is just to produce one real structure A + C that can demonstrate the above without any theoretical considerations.

To be perfectly frank, both tasks are impossible as a part C of a bigger part A of same 3-D structure, cannot one-way crush down part A.

But you can always try to prove me wrong.

There are plenty of papers and software describing how to carry out the structural damage analysis of C colliding with A in The Journal of SNAJ (Society of Naval Architects of Japan) from 1990 onwards. Also in the magazine The Naval Architect of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects, London. With luck you may find an article by me.
 
It's funny that you never have to read very far in your posts to find the nonsense. Nobody says that the collapsing mass of the building CRUSHED the columns. The columns BROKE at the welds. You are aware of this, aren't you?
That is the fundamental ambiguity of the OP which I have queried several times.

It is the base false premise for Heiwa, David S Chandler AND Tony Szamboti's false explanations.

And it has been explained to each of them many times and with clarity.

So they know the truth but continue to publish untruth.
 
That is the fundamental ambiguity of the OP which I have queried several times.

It is the base false premise for Heiwa, David S Chandler AND Tony Szamboti's false explanations.

And it has been explained to each of them many times and with clarity.

So they know the truth but continue to publish untruth.

A broken weld connection between two elements, e.g. columns, is a valid failure and it may be produced by gravity.

However, if an element has two welded connections and a gravity force manages to destroy one, the same gravity force cannot destroy the second one. You need another gravity force to do the job ... and it does not exist.
 
A broken weld connection between two elements, e.g. columns, is a valid failure and it may be produced by gravity.

However, if an element has two welded connections and a gravity force manages to destroy one, the same gravity force cannot destroy the second one. You need another gravity force to do the job ... and it does not exist.

Cascading failure. As I understand it, this describes failure in all systems that consist of connected parts.
 
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