why a god is impossible

[RandFan]

Show me the definition of perfect that includes "without need" and we'll talk.

I know you don't like repetition but if you refuse to acknowledge something.

2. Which is so good that nothing of the kind could be better.

If nothing could be better then what exactly does it "need"? Need implies that a think or state could be better. Otherwise it wouldn't need it.

Do you ever buy anything that you don't need or want?
Do you ever buy something that you don't think will better your state of being?

When I buy ice cream I do it because it makes me feel better (see definition).

 

[Belz...]

Can you not be in a perfect state of wanting?

Incoherent. Perfection implies that you cannot possibly want anything, because you already had it all.

 

[Belz...]

You keep using that "by definition" phrase.

I assume you know what it means.

Show me the definition of perfect that includes "without need" and we'll talk.

I think we agree that "perfect" means that it cannot, possibly, conceivably, get better. Any being that "needs" something doesn't HAVE that something. Having that something fills that needs. Having needs is, basically, a flaw, because it's something that you don't have, and therefore that would make you better. We're talking about PERFECTION, here.

 

[Belz...]

Why on earth would he want something that wouldn't imrpove his state? I can honestly say that I've never experienced this in my life. Do you want things that won't improve your state of being? Make you feel better?

In fact, some people have a condition that makes them want to get rid of one of their limbs. To them, such an ablation would be an improvement. So clearly, even in the worst cases needs are a search for a better state.

 

[joobz]

Incoherent. Perfection implies that you cannot possibly want anything, because you already had it all.

Why, becuase you assert as such? If it is a perfect state of wanting, the act of wanting is the ideal state.

 

[slingblade]

that's why I asked if having a consciousness could possibly rule out perfection. I thought it was a reasonable question. Anyone want to give an opinion on it?

 

[joobz]

that's why I asked if having a consciousness could possibly rule out perfection. I thought it was a reasonable question. Anyone want to give an opinion on it?

It is reasonable. I just don't know if an answer exists. Perhaps only a perfect form of consciousness could know this answer.


I do think that the notion of perfection and desire being mutually exclusive is not logical. the original explantion using the perfect peice of music clearly illustrated this.

 

[RandFan]

Why, becuase you assert as such? If it is a perfect state of wanting, the act of wanting is the ideal state.

I could perfectly want my head to stop hurting but that doesn't mean anything.

If my state of being were perfect I wouldn't want my head to stop hurting.

If I was perfectly happy and perfectly satisfied why would I want anything?

I've asked this question a dozen times but no one will answer. Dr. Kitten will call me stupid though and accuse me of arguing ad nauseam but he won't answer the question.

Joobz, if you were perfectly happy and perfectly satisfied would you want anything and why?

 

[RandFan]

I do think that the notion of perfection and desire being mutually exclusive is not logical. the original explantion using the perfect peice of music clearly illustrated this.

At the height of orgasm I have never, ever wanted ice cream. I've wanted it after because the orgasm was gone but never during.

Isn't perfection an eternal orgasm?

I think the notion of perfection is a silly absolute and beyond us to really sit and deduce what it is or isn't. I'm sure though that as soon as you define what it is or isn't you've set perfection up to meet the wishes and wants of humans with needs and desires. Using music which cannot ever be perfect except in an abstract way solves nothing. There is no law of physics or any such standard to judge such a perfection.

 

[joobz]

Joobz, if you were perfectly happy and perfectly satisfied would you want anything and why?

Hi, Randfan.
I know where you are coming from. But I do not know why you couldn't want to have a desire? there is pleasure in wanting, in titilation. It adds to the enjoyment.

We can't even get consensus here on what perfection is and this goes back to my original point. To the faithful, god is perfection in what he does. So, anything that seems a contridiction to this is merely our failing to understand because of our imprefections and not god's fault.

So, again, I do not think that this line of logic is effective in anything.

 

[slingblade]

It's a bit out of my depth, but maybe I can learn something.



A state of perfect longing is made imperfect by gaining what it wants.

A state of perfect satisfaction is made imperfect either by addition of a superfluity, or by a loss of an existing facet.

A state of perfect experience....seems to be always subjective and dependent on the subject or recipient, such as the perfect piece of music.

What other kinds might there be?

EDIT: Never mind. I see while I was thinking about it, a better answer may have presented. Point against a perfect god: perfection is impossible to maintain in an entropic universe.

 

[joobz]

At the height of orgasm I have never, ever wanted ice cream. I've wanted it after because the orgasm was gone but never during.

Isn't perfection an eternal orgasm?

Back in college, we had a sign above our door based on that exact line of reasoning:
"god is eternally cuming"

I think the notion of perfection is a silly absolute and beyond us to really sit and deduce what it is or isn't.

Fully agree. which is why i think placing stipluations on a perfect being is a silly game.

although, hasn't stopped me from participating. Mainly me just highlighting my imprefections.

 

[joobz]

EDIT: Never mind. I see while I was thinking about it, a better answer may have presented. Point against a perfect god: perfection is impossible to maintain in an entropic universe.

god as a perfect crystal? why is god limited by physics?

 

[slingblade]

god as a perfect crystal? why is god limited by physics?

I....don't know. I'm new at thinking like this, so I apologize for my errors. Post kittens and gentle me along.

Not that a perfect god is impossible to attain, but to maintain. Given my limited time perspective I can only speculate, but how long does or can today's perfect crystal stay perfect? What made me think of that was RF's perfection/orgasm post. You can attain that, but I've yet to meet anyone who could maintain it. Does that hold true for anything in a changing universe? Can god stay perfect in a universe that changes?

Ha. I find I'm a bit lost. Am I needlessly restating the argument if I ask: What are we? The thing that made God perfect, or the thing that flawed him, or some other?

 

[joobz]

I....don't know. I'm new at thinking like this, so I apologize for my errors.

Don't apologize. I find this area of reasoning to be tenuous and out of my area of skill. I was just enjoying the notion of god as a perfect crystal, since that is the state where entropy and temperature=0. God as the third law of thermo. I defer more to others here who are better apt to answer your questions intelligently.

 

[RandFan]

Hi, Randfan.
I know where you are coming from. But I do not know why you couldn't want to have a desire? there is pleasure in wanting, in titilation. It adds to the enjoyment.

If you are perfect then you already have the enjoyment. You allredy have the desire. If you didn't have the desire you would not be perfect.

We can't even get consensus here on what perfection is and this goes back to my original point. To the faithful, god is perfection in what he does. So, anything that seems a contridiction to this is merely our failing to understand because of our imprefections and not god's fault.

Forgive me but I've always found this a cop out. If doctrine declared that god is a square circle then it would simply be our problem for not being able to comprehend how something could be square and a circle at the same time (see Lewis Carroll's Through The Looking Glass). Once you get to this point then logic and reason are meaningless.

So, again, I do not think that this line of logic is effective in anything.

Well of course not. No line of logic is. No line of reason is. This is the great take your ball and go home argument. It's absolutely meaningless. At this point god is Satan, tiny Tim and the Pillsbury dough boy all rolled up into one and who is to say different? Every thing is up for grabs and it all makes sense.

Actually that is the only value that it has. The argument devolves to any and everything and the believer is left clutching magical thinking to believe or accepting of reality.

I'm not here because I expect believers to be rational and capable of following a line of logic.

 

[RandFan]

Back in college, we had a sign above our door based on that exact line of reasoning:
"god is eternally cuming"

Fully agree. which is why i think placing stipluations on a perfect being is a silly game.

although, hasn't stopped me from participating. Mainly me just highlighting my imprefections.

We agree.

 

[RandFan]

It's a bit out of my depth, but maybe I can learn something.



A state of perfect longing is made imperfect by gaining what it wants.

A state of perfect satisfaction is made imperfect either by addition of a superfluity, or by a loss of an existing facet.

A state of perfect experience....seems to be always subjective and dependent on the subject or recipient, such as the perfect piece of music.

What other kinds might there be?

EDIT: Never mind. I see while I was thinking about it, a better answer may have presented. Point against a perfect god: perfection is impossible to maintain in an entropic universe.

Excellent points. No never mind about it.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I was thinking about that today.

I typed a fkoff long reply to this that not only would have convinced you that I was utterly and unquestionably correct, but contained the cure for cancer, the solution to peace in the middle east, and one damned fine chocolate chip cookie recipe to boot, but then I closed the wrong tab...

In short it was "believers are effing weird, and I don't think any of them would buy the proof in the OP, which renders it pretty well useless, however we might like to define perfect [cure for cancer] [peace plan] [cookie recipe]".

Copout done. I'm going to bed.

Bring back Janeane.

 

[Belz...]

Why, becuase you assert as such? If it is a perfect state of wanting, the act of wanting is the ideal state.

I believe RandFan made it clear. But let me add this: if "perfect" can be used to mean anything you want, then can I also way "why, becuase you assert as such?" ?

I know where you are coming from. But I do not know why you couldn't want to have a desire? there is pleasure in wanting, in titilation. It adds to the enjoyment.

We're not talking about a being of utter pleasure: we're talking a being of perfection.

And slingblade's points, though interesting, are somewhat besides the point, methinks, because now we're throwing the word "perfect" around as a modifier to other nouns and adjectives rather than the subject at hand: a perfect beign.

Assuming the concept isn't completely nonsensical and incoherent, what do we mean by "perfect", exactly ? If we agree that it means "can't possibly get better", than it can't possibly need anything because it already has it.