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Who's Afraid of Life After Death? (article)

From the article:
I wish to suggest that this approach to explaining the NDE is fundamentally misguided. To my knowledge, no one who has had an NDE feels any need for an explanation in the reductionist sense that researchers are seeking. For the experiencer, the NDE does not need to be explained because it is exactly what it purports to be, which is, at a minimum, the direct experience of consciousness—or minds, or selves, or personal identity—existing independently of the physical body.
Well, the easiest person to fool certainly is yourself. If what the author says is true, then I am unhappy of these folks' admission of willfully allowing to be ignorant.

It is only with respect to our deeply entrenched materialist paradigm that the NDE needs to be explained, or more accurately, explained away.
Explained away? Well, I am fairly certain that NDEs occur, so why would I want to act like they dont? What I'm interested in is the mechanism behind NDEs, in fact I am very much opposed to "explaining away" this occurence.

In this article, I will take the position that materialism has been shown to be empirically false;
You take a string of logic. You put your hand at one end, you put your hand at the other end. Move your two hands with ends of logic in place towards each other, connect the two ends of logic. You now have a circle.

I'm afraid the authors deliberate avoidance of an objective examination does not appeal to me.

The author does happen to name 3 things which refute Materialism:
Before addressing this question, I’d like to say something about the kind and strength of evidence that refutes materialism. Emily Williams Cook, Bruce Greyson, and Ian Stevenson (1998) describe “three features of NDEs—enhanced mentation, the experience of seeing the physical body from a different position in space, and paranormal perception—which we believe might provide convergent evidence supporting the survival hypothesis.”
Enchanced Mentation is a word which refers to another kind of super-sensory perception (at least that is what I gather).

I'm afraid I dont buy the "seing the physical body from a different position in space" as refuting Materialism anymore than I see dreaming of your physical body refuting Materialism.

The final evidence against Materialism comes in the form of something which has absolutely zero evidence in the way of support for it.


I could go on and give a full synopsis of the article, Mr. Wu, if you would like. NDEs do nothing but prove NDEs occur, they prove the existence of an afterlife just as much as Ouija Boards prove ghosts.


Am I afraid of an afterlife? No, my concept of an afterlife makes me feel happy and tingly inside, its nothing to fear.
 
For the experiencer, the NDE does not need to be explained because it is exactly what it purports to be, which is, at a minimum, the direct experience of consciousness—or minds, or selves, or personal identity—existing independently of the physical body.
And of course, some of the most reliable observers we can think of are pople who are seriously ill, on the verge of death, more or less in coma.

Their ability to observe, record and conclude is of course unsurpassed, their sense of time and place acute and unimpeded.

Hans :rolleyes:
 
MRC_Hans said:
And of course, some of the most reliable observers we can think of are pople who are seriously ill, on the verge of death, more or less in coma.

Their ability to observe, record and conclude is of course unsurpassed, their sense of time and place acute and unimpeded.

Hans :rolleyes:

W: That is possible. But at least the experiencers aren't armchair quarterbacks like you guys are.

By the way, some of them have described things far away that have checked out to be true, which they didn't know about before.

Winston
 
Originally posted by WWu777

By the way, some of them have described things far away that have checked out to be true, which they didn't know about before.

And, of course, you have this actual evidence? And, of course, it is more than anecdote? And, of course, there is no possibility of a mundane explanation?
 
WWu777 said:


W: That is possible. But at least the experiencers aren't armchair quarterbacks like you guys are.

By the way, some of them have described things far away that have checked out to be true, which they didn't know about before.

Winston

Wrong again, I have personally had an NDE. I did want to find out why, and the so called "materialist" explanation fits, not the paranormal. Even when someone bleeds out, your blood vessels close up to conserve blood in the brain, so even if you "die" clinically, chemical reactions are ocurring in the brain, even without elecrical signals, as memories are stored chemically in part. Again, just because a cars motor is not running does not mean it is not moving. More info can be found at http://skepdic.com. People can live up to even 10 to 20 minutes without significant brain damage without any air or blood flow.
As for your "confirmation," remote viewing is also judged subjectively. The question is whether they knew beforehand and whether the "hits" were unambiguous. I am not impressed.
 
WWu777 said:


W: That is possible. But at least the experiencers aren't armchair quarterbacks like you guys are.

By the way, some of them have described things far away that have checked out to be true, which they didn't know about before.

Winston
Riiiiiiight, so you can't have a valuable opinion about NDEs unless you've experienced one yourself. This does seem to mitigate against unbiased and objective research.

With reference to your claim regarding "explaining things far away"...by implication many people who claim to have NDEs have not had their visions confirmed and authenticated (in other words they were wrong). For those that have "seen things", more mundane explanations could include:

- Sheer dumb luck
- Selective interpretation of the "visions"
- Outright lying

All of which, to me, seem to be more likely. There is a real desire for people to believe that we're more than just meat.
 
WWu777 said:


W: That is possible. But at least the experiencers aren't armchair quarterbacks like you guys are.

By the way, some of them have described things far away that have checked out to be true, which they didn't know about before.

Winston
A silly and unnecessary ad hominem. People expriencing NDEs are average people, like the rest of us. They are, however, not exactly in a good position to make observations when it happens. Also, you should distinguish between NDE and OBE. Your latter description fits an OBE. They are often concurrent, but not always.

I would like you to give us some references to confirmed OBE observations. The ones I have read so far are far from convincing. A person having seen anxious relatives gathering around their bed or having seen nurses and instruments and overheard doctors talking in a busy hospital environment hardly needs a paranormal explanation.

Hans
 
WWu777 said:


W: That is possible. But at least the experiencers aren't armchair quarterbacks like you guys are.
...snip

Sooo... Following your line of reason, the conclusions of the people who study black holes can not be taken serioulsly because they are armchair astronomers or cosmologists and never experienced a black hole:rolleyes:
 
This must be a cosmic joke. Or a terrible mutation. Even by woo-woo standards this guy WWu777 is unbelievable. I don't think he is serious, maybe he just has a completely rotten sense of humor. But if he actually believes all these then we have probably discovered a missing link between apes and Australopithecus.
 
Yahweh said:
From the article:



Enchanced Mentation is a word which refers to another kind of super-sensory perception (at least that is what I gather).



No, enhanced mentation means being able to think more clearly. Being more aware, "more conscious" so to speak.
 
Garrette said:


And, of course, you have this actual evidence? And, of course, it is more than anecdote? And, of course, there is no possibility of a mundane explanation?

There is a possibility of a mundane explanation. It's always going to be incredibly difficult to rule out mundane explanations. The pertinent question here is which is the more rational position to adopt. Enhanced mentation, OOBE and apparent paranormal ability whilst in these states are suggestive that the experience is what it straightforwardly appears to be.
 
Consciousness is merely a massive delusion so why should we expect any more from believers!?

I'm telling you people that false memories are the only thing that can truly explain away this nonsense!
 
!Xx+-Rational-+xX! said:
Consciousness is merely a massive delusion so why should we expect any more from believers!?

I'm telling you people that false memories are the only thing that can truly explain away this nonsense!

Yes, false memories :) But one difficulty for the materialist is the question of why everyone near death doesn't have false memories on being resuscitated. My hypothesis is that they've forgotten those false memories! :D
 
II talking to his sockpuppet :rolleyes:

Why should we expect that people would all experience the same phenomenon, except if it was a real phenomenon. And since all people do NOT experience it, is this not evidence that it is not real?

Hans
 
Interesting Ian

The pertinent question here is which is the more rational position to adopt.

Agreed.

Interesting IanEnhanced mentation, OOBE and apparent paranormal ability whilst in these states are suggestive that the experience is what it straightforwardly appears to be.

Suggestive does not mean actual or even probable. It means suggestive. I say it is very slightly suggestive.

You do notice, too, don't you, that you're arguing in a circle here?
(Paraphrased) "The evidence for OOBEs is that people report a lot of them and since people report a lot of OOBEs then we should decide OOBEs are real unless proven otherwise."
 
NDE phenomenon can be induced by a variety of means, including High-G blackout, other forms of oxygen deprivation, and powerful magnetic fields.
Considerable research in this area has been published in Skeptical Inquirer.
 
Bikewer said:
NDE phenomenon can be induced by a variety of means, including High-G blackout, other forms of oxygen deprivation, and powerful magnetic fields.
Considerable research in this area has been published in Skeptical Inquirer.

Yes, but would you agree this is irrelevant regarding whether that which is experienced is real?
 

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