Whoa, am I psychic?

I don't understand all the calls to, "move on." You don't have to read this discussion if you'd rather not. You don't have to participate in it. Some of us are still interested. I'd be very interested to know just what it is that bothers people so much about this issue being discussed. Nobody is being hurt here. Aside from the occational hysterics, we're discussing the subject fairly logically. Why is it you want it to just go away?

Maybe you guys should think about that a bit...
 
Just another note: this is still out on the web as Randi's work! He never added the proper credit to the original writing. It stands in exactly the same state it did before Chris noticed it.
 
Just another note: this is still out on the web as Randi's work! He never added the proper credit to the original writing. It stands in exactly the same state it did before Chris noticed it.

Which is probably for the best, IMO. Otherwise he'd be "changing history," and could be accused of trying to cover up his screw-up. This way the original is still there for all to see.

Have you emailed Randi about your concerns?
 
Which is probably for the best, IMO. Otherwise he'd be "changing history," and could be accused of trying to cover up his screw-up. This way the original is still there for all to see.

Have you emailed Randi about your concerns?
He's added notes to previous posts before. It wouldn't be hard to post a link to his mea culpa with a little note.
 
Last try and I'm done.

I cannot make sense of Randi's explanation.
There are three parts to this:

This means that he intended to credit the author but forgot, or he usually credits the author but failed to do so this time. I still have a problem with this because he actually changed it to look like he wrote it himself, whereas the normal thing to do would be to simply quote and credit the author and express your agreement. What was he thinking while he was changing the words to make it look like he wrote it himself. What I mean is, how was he thinking of crediting the author while he was changing the authors words to make it look like he wrote it himself? I really have a problem with this.

I'm pretty sure he could have changed the words and still credited the author with a simple line like:

'with thanks to forum member Chris'.
 
Well, I stayed clear so far, mostly to give myself time to really think on this, and I haven't swayed much in my opinion since first chancing upon this.

First of all, I speak as both a writer and an artist, who can be considered semi-professional (in that I'd been paid to do both). I have also been in the position where something I have produced has been reproduced without specific permission, in contrast to my rights. It was accidental on behalf of the group and I lost no pay out of it, however as I like to keep track of the use of my work for CV reasons. They also apologised completely and offered me compensation (which I declined as I really didn't feel any offence was committed). It was more of a disconcern initially as I felt a right to the acknowledgement of my work.

In writing, it's the same thing. A simple acknowledgement of intellectual property is a basic right we all have.

People have expressed that this is a small error on Randi's behalf. And I would agree, if not for the effort taken to alter the original to suit SWIFT. It would have taken comparitively minimal effort to have fronted the original piece with 'as said by a forum member, who said it best' (or something similar). In other words, although Randi says it was a mistake caused by being rushed, it would have taken less time and effort to have acknowledged the author.

Hence I agree with Billy-Joe in that Randi's response is confusing.

On the matter that I happen to admire Randi, this for the most part has not changed. I'm a skeptic first and foremost and I value his efforts and praise the work he has done, even if perhaps his method in this case has been questionable in the least. His position does not put him beyond criticism, and nor should it. We would expect no less from anybody else.

Hawkeye has been extremely forgiving in this situation, and I must admit I would also not make a huge fuss. Yet I am also disappointed in Randi's reaction to the forum's judgement, and am disappointed in his lack of understanding that he committed a rather serious faux pas.

Athon
 
He's added notes to previous posts before. It wouldn't be hard to post a link to his mea culpa with a little note.

Indeed. I've contributed twice to SWIFT, and both times he added comments that were very clearly his (as in they were in italics and interrupted the flow of my piece, hence no confusion of ownership was possible).

Randi was human before, and he remains so now. I've never deified anybody before and I'm not about to start. I continue to respect his work, yet cannot judge this act differently because it is somebody I admire. Were it anybody else, I would be just as disappointed.

Athon
 
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I'd been hoping that somewhere along this or the other thread a comment of some kind would have been forthcoming in reply, either directly, or via e mail question from a forum member.

Since it hasn't, I've sent an e mail asking for further response from Randi himself.

Stay tuned.
 
Its been interesting reading/following this entire controversy; I've refrained from comment until now because I wanted to watch how people reacted, first.

My own opinion -- yes, Randi is culpable. He clearly edited the original post to make it seem as if it was himself saying these things. How was he planning to "attribute" it to someone else (if, as he claims, that was his intention, and he just forgot)?

His lack of apology further compounds the problem.

And his telling forum members to "stop barking" is downright insulting, in my opinion. The man sets up a forum in which he regularly subjects others to scathing analysis and criticism, but then turns around and objects when people have the audacity to do the same to him?

But that's all been said before. What fascinates me more is what this episode reveals about many JREF members. It seems that Randi has been elevated to an almost mythical status, he is the prophet and we are his disciples. Randi can do no wrong.

When it is revealed that Randi can, in fact, do wrong, there are two responses. One is to seek to ignore/justify it, and maintain Randi in his guru status. The other is to react with anger and/or disillusionment, that Randi has failed to be perfect.

Folks, Randi is human. Not only that, he's a rather aged human, and can be crotchety at times. He does not have any greater 'insight' into the world than other human beings. He is not immune to the weaknesses and frailties shared by other human beings.

I admire James Randi for the work he's done. For all the time, energy, and money he's put into promoting a more rational view of the world, and debunking those who seek to cheat and deceive others.

But long before I joined these forums, my impression of him was far from as wonderful as that of others here. When I saw him in interviews, especially interviews which placed him debating with others, I often saw him lose his composure, act immaturely or unprofessionally, and make arguments that in my opinion were weak or inconclusive.

He is, in other words, a fallible human being who nonetheless is seeking to do the most that he can. He'll make mistakes along the way, and he should be held accountable for those mistakes to exactly the same degree that he holds others accountable for their mistakes.

To me, the biggest issue that that this whole fiasco has revealed is not related to Randi himself. It is related to his followers, some of whom have, in my opinion, elevated him to a status that prevents them from applying the same critical thinking and evaluation towards him that they apply towards others.

I appreciate everything that James Randi has done; I admire and agree with most of what he does. In this instance, both his initial actions, and his subsequent response, were wrong. To me, that simply means that I should apply the same level of skepticism and evaluation towards what Randi says that I apply towards whatever anyone else says. Which is what I did before this whole debacle began, anyway.
 
I was going to email Mr. Randi, but decided he probably didn't want to hear more murmurings of a barking dog.

Wolfman, I wonder what thread you've seen this anger and/or disillusionment that Randi has failed to be perfect. Certainly not this one, posters in this thread have pointed out his mistake, he acknowledged it, but failed to correct it. Failing to correct a mistake once it has been drawn to your attention, and referring to those who have pointed it out as barking dogs, goes far beyond not being perfect. In his own words, this deserves more than a "big shrug".
 
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.......To me, the biggest issue that that this whole fiasco has revealed is not related to Randi himself. It is related to his followers, some of whom have, in my opinion, elevated him to a status that prevents them from applying the same critical thinking and evaluation towards him that they apply towards others.....

You're assuming that if, say, Sylvia Brown had done the same thing, the 'followers' you talk about would evaluate that situation differently.
 
You're assuming that if, say, Sylvia Brown had done the same thing, the 'followers' you talk about would evaluate that situation differently.
Certainly.

I noted two different prominent reactions. One was the "Randi can do no evil" response, that Randi did nothing wrong at all, that people are wrong to criticize him, etc. Which is most definitely very different than the response that we would have gotten if it had been found that Sylvia Brown had done the very same thing on her website.

One was the "I'll never be able to read SWIFT again" or "I'll never be able to read it the same way again", which so far as I can tell means that people were not previously applying the same skepticism to Randi's writing that they apply to others.

For me, I don't make excuses for Randi, his initial actions were wrong, and his response made it worse. But it doesn't affect how I regard SWIFT, or anything else he writes -- I regarded everything he wrote before with the same level of skepticism that I'd apply to what I read by anyone else. The revelation that he's human and makes mistakes doesn't in any way diminish my desire to read future newsletters, and it does not affect how I will view what he writes.
 
I was going to email Mr. Randi, but decided he probably didn't want to hear more murmurings of a barking dog.

well, I did e mail, but don't have a reply yet.

Counterpoint that with when I e mailed Randi about JREF finances, I had replies within 24 hours in the two cases I e mailed him.
 
Certainly.

I noted two different prominent reactions. One was the "Randi can do no evil" response, that Randi did nothing wrong at all, that people are wrong to criticize him, etc. Which is most definitely very different than the response that we would have gotten if it had been found that Sylvia Brown had done the very same thing on her website.

One was the "I'll never be able to read SWIFT again" or "I'll never be able to read it the same way again", which so far as I can tell means that people were not previously applying the same skepticism to Randi's writing that they apply to others.

For me, I don't make excuses for Randi, his initial actions were wrong, and his response made it worse. But it doesn't affect how I regard SWIFT, or anything else he writes -- I regarded everything he wrote before with the same level of skepticism that I'd apply to what I read by anyone else. The revelation that he's human and makes mistakes doesn't in any way diminish my desire to read future newsletters, and it does not affect how I will view what he writes.

I agree with some of what you say here.

However, i can only speak for myself here but, if there was a thread here about Sylvia using some of her forum in her commentary, i'd feel we were diluting the criticism of her.
 
hmmm...nice pussy-cat...nice, nice pussy-cat. :)
(You are not Randi in disguise are you? :( )



I'm pretty sure he could have changed the words and still credited the author with a simple line like:

'with thanks to forum member Chris'.
You missed the point, so perhaps reading what another posters wrote might help...

People have expressed that this is a small error on Randi's behalf. And I would agree, if not for the effort taken to alter the original to suit SWIFT. It would have taken comparitively minimal effort to have fronted the original piece with 'as said by a forum member, who said it best' (or something similar). In other words, although Randi says it was a mistake caused by being rushed, it would have taken less time and effort to have acknowledged the author.

Randi...clearly edited the original post to make it seem as if it was himself saying these things. How was he planning to "attribute" it to someone else (if, as he claims, that was his intention, and he just forgot)?
 
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For me, I don't make excuses for Randi, his initial actions were wrong, and his response made it worse. But it doesn't affect how I regard SWIFT, or anything else he writes -- I regarded everything he wrote before with the same level of skepticism that I'd apply to what I read by anyone else.

So you are saying that we should have been skeptical all along that Randi was the author of his words? That seems more cynical than skeptical to me.

The revelation that he's human and makes mistakes doesn't in any way diminish my desire to read future newsletters, and it does not affect how I will view what he writes.

I think your disclaimer is unnecessary. I did not see anyone state that their disappointment was due to discovering that he makes mistakes.

Linda
 

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