Who started both World Wars?

[Wroclaw]

You have cited nothing. You merely mentioned a book title. And since you refuse to cite anything from it, we can safely assume that there is nothing in it.

I gave you the authors and I gave you a page number. I refuse to actually read it for you. I assume, perhaps wrongly, that you can read and not that you have your own private Rudolf Hess typing your nonsense for you.

so again, do you have anything of substance that makes it plausible that the German motivation for invading Norway was that they wanted a bombing platform against Britain, where I have already shown that Scapa Flow was attacked before the invasion from mainland Germany, proving that they did not need Norway at all to reach any place in Britain and that your cited mini raid against Aberdeen was carried out in 1943, 2 years after the invasion.

You have yet to tell me the role of Luftflotte 5...

So you have no case at all, where I have official British government documents that prove that Britain intended and in fact carried out actions against Germany that justifed military action against Britain.

And you have been shown Nazi documents that show their goals in Norway and Denmark.

But you choose to ignore them.

Remember: I never said bases in Norway was the only reason to invade; I merely said it was a reason.

Now how does it feel to have been exposed as a liar?

How does it feel to be exposed as a jackass?

 

[Wroclaw]

Hmmm...

On Thursday, August 15, 1940 there was a German air raid on the airfield. At approximately midday, some 50 Junkers Ju 88 bomber aircraft attacked the aerodrome, killing 13 military personnel and 1 civilian, and destroying 12 Whitley aircraft. The 169 bombs dropped caused extensive damage, with many buildings, including all five hangars, being either damaged or destroyed.

Wow. I wonder where the planes that did not flew out from...

 

[9/11-investigator]

It was January 27 1940, that Hitler ordered 'Studie Nord' to be placed under his personal supervision.

The Fuhrer Directive for Weserubung (no. 10a) was issued on March 1, 1940:

Full text of the directive can be viewed HERE. Its on page 831.

It is obvious that Garethdjb is not going to risk his forum neck by pretending that the Germans wanted to expand their Lebensraum high up north or use Norway as an usinkable aircraft carrier as the lesser Gods here want to have it. Gareth (who is half Dutch) only mentions iron ore as the motive and shows that the Germans merely responded to agressive actions planned by Churchill.

Fact is that Britain by the end of 1939 already planned to mine Norwegian waters and to send an expedition force Narvik. These plans had not remained unnoticed with the flawless operating Abwehr in Britain. So when the War Cabinet gathered on January 2, 1940 to discuss the matter (see document), matters were already known to admiral Canaris and thus enabled Hitler to plan for operation Weserubung. Thus at the beginning of April 1940, Germans forces were ready to act, as soon as the British fleet would sail for Norway. Indeed the departure of the British fleet was signaled by the Abwehr from Engeland to Canaris.

 

[Wroclaw]

Hmmmm. Aberdeen and Cardiff were both raided on 12 July 1940 . . . Wonder where those planes flew out of.

Ah, yes, and we still have not had our fun little analogy filled in by our little Dutch friend. I'll repeat it here:

U.S. Pacific Fleet is to Pearl Harbor as U.K. North Atlantic Home Fleet is to ______.

If our little Dutch friend can fill in the analogy, perhaps he'll understand why the Kriegsmarine saw the war as unwinnable w/o neutralizing this particular base. After all, it pretty much lost WWI in that very stretch of water...

 

[Wroclaw]

Hmmm...



Wow. I wonder where the planes that did not flew out from...

Should have mentioned that this raid was on the RAF base at Driffield in Yorkshire. I.e., NOT in Scotland.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I gave you the authors and I gave you a page number. I refuse to actually read it for you.

That's because you have no case, liar.

I assume, perhaps wrongly, that you can read

So you have been conversing for 120 or so pages in this thread with someone who can't read and you never noticed?! What says that about you? Seriously, the situation is getting that desperate for you, now is it.

and not that you have your own private Rudolf Hess typing your nonsense for you.

Hess is dead, killed by the British to prevent the real story of WW2 coming to the surface, namely that Hess was not confused at all when he flew to Britain but that he desperately wanted to make peace. But churchill would not be satisfied with anything less than the total destruction of Germany (read chapter 2 of this book about the villest character Britain ever produced)

You have yet to tell me the role of Luftflotte 5...

I don't have to help you make your case if you are not able yourself to make it, just because you have no case.

And you have been shown Nazi documents that show their goals in Norway and Denmark.

Give me the post number.

Remember: I never said bases in Norway was the only reason to invade; I merely said it was a reason.

Liar. That was exactly what you said:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7024361&postcount=4612

The only reason for the German invasion of Norway was the British mining and British/French invasion of Narvik. Period.

 

[9/11-investigator]

double posting.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Hmmmm. Aberdeen and Cardiff were both raided on 12 July 1940 . . . Wonder where those planes flew out of.

Yeah, I wonder too. But you are merely suggesting, right? You really think that Germany bombed Cardiff from Bergen rather than say from the Ruhr?

But it is completely irrelevant from where these bombers started, since I have already shown that German bombers could reach Scapa Flow from mainland Germany before the invasion, proving that the Germans did not need Norway at all for their bombing campaigns against Britain. You cannot conclude that the Germans invaded Norway for that reason, unless you show me German Government documents that say that. Like the many British Government documents I have posted recently that clearly indicate the intentions of the British.

You have nothing.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Should have mentioned that this raid was on the RAF base at Driffield in Yorkshire. I.e., NOT in Scotland.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for civility.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Conclusion: Britain and France not only declared war on Germany, merely for the fact that it existed, they clearly started hostilities as well.

 

[Wroclaw]

That's because you have no case, liar.

The little man refuses to consult a cited source and then calls me a liar? Wow. I mean — wow.

I don't have to help you make your case if you are not able yourself to make it, just because you have no case.

It is expected that an honest person in a debate will check cited sources for accuracy. He will do this on his own because he isn't a lazy slob.

Liar. That was exactly what you said:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7024361&postcount=4612

Where in that post do i say it was the only reason? Your inability to read with any degree of comprehension is not my responsibility, Tiny.

The only reason for the German invasion of Norway was the British mining and British/French invasion of Narvik. Period.

Right . . . because we all know how peace-loving they were, eh?

 

[Wroclaw]

Yeah, I wonder too. But you are merely suggesting, right? You really think that Germany bombed Cardiff from Bergen rather than say from the Ruhr?

How clever of you to leave Aberdeen out of it.

Yes, both Cardiff and Aberdeen (bombed a few years earlier than you suggested) were raided the same day by bombers from the same bases. Bases in which country, Tiny?

But it is completely irrelevant from where these bombers started, since I have already shown that German bombers could reach Scapa Flow from mainland Germany before the invasion, proving that the Germans did not need Norway at all for their bombing campaigns against Britain.

You still haven't addressed my analogy, because you can't. But if you could, I'd add this corollary question:

Would it be smarter to bomb Pearl Harbor from Okinawa or from the Philippines?

You cannot conclude that the Germans invaded Norway for that reason, unless you show me German Government documents that say that.

Tiny: You don't get to dictate terms of evidence. Dig?

Like the many British Government documents I have posted recently that clearly indicate the intentions of the British.

The British documents that you post in drastically abridged form? I just downloaded the document you posted. Are you aware that in Section 14 of that document, it says they won't invade without cooperation from the Norwegians? They say it's essential to what they are suggesting.

By the way, the document you cited is a suggested plan for consideration and NOT the actual plan at that moment in time.

If this weren't so much fun, it might be cruel.

You have nothing.

Nothing but your mom every morning.

 

[Wroclaw]

In general you should shut up about things you have no clue about or worse, are ready to intentionally lie about, just to keep your self-serving BS stories afloat.

You have the nerve to call me a liar? Really?

People like you are easily explained thus: Having had your country raped twice by Germany, you took a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude, not realizing that the Nazis you love so much would continue to look down upon you no matter what. They viewed you, probably correctly, as an inherently weak and effeminate nation. You embody that spirit, now, don't you, Tiny?

 

[Corsair 115]

But it is completely irrelevant from where these bombers started, since I have already shown that German bombers could reach Scapa Flow from mainland Germany...

You did? I guess I missed that. Mind refreshing my memory and posting the source for that again?

By the way, you are aware that maximum range of an aircraft is an entirely different thing from its combat radius, right?

 

[Craig4]

The little man refuses to consult a cited source and then calls me a liar? Wow. I mean — wow.



It is expected that an honest person in a debate will check cited sources for accuracy. He will do this on his own because he isn't a lazy slob.



Where in that post do i say it was the only reason? Your inability to read with any degree of comprehension is not my responsibility, Tiny.



Right . . . because we all know how peace-loving they were, eh?

Interesting how the Nazi gets nastier when he's caught in a lie. I don't think this whole internet thing is working out for him as he planned. It's hard to attract minions when turned into a chew toy.

 

[Wroclaw]

I just want to reiterate a point so that everyone can enjoy:

Tiny posted a document from the British Archives that he claimed proved his point. It is, in fact, a summary of a much longer document that I now have in my possession. I'm happy to share it with folks if they desire. Send me a PM for more info.

Correction on earlier post: It is Section 16 of the document that lays out the necessity for Norwegian cooperation.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Germany was certainly doomed as soon as it declared war on the United States. The production capacity of the U.S. was simply enormous, and its economy was safe from the kinds of aerial assaults that plagued German industry. Only the U.S. had sufficient spare capacity that it could not only supply its own forces waging war in two different theatres, it could not also supply copious amounts of material to its allies, but it could spend huge amounts of resources on programs that were far from certain (e.g. the Manhattan Project). And the atomic bomb was a war-winning weapon.

And no no doubt you would have used, right, just like you complete unnecessary did with Japan? The monsters won WW2, Soviets and Americans. They waged war and were prepared to use any means to conquer Europe, what had been the intention all along and was enabled by these British fools with their war garantee for Poland.

Or as a member of the Reagan governent put it:

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/090528_conscience.htm
Do Americans Have a Moral Conscience?


Corsair:

Germany was likely doomed as soon as it invaded Russia. Russia too had a large economic capacity for waging war, and even without direct U.S. efforts against Germany, Russia would have defeated the Third Reich on its own, though it probably would have taken until 1947 or so.

No. A hypercentralistic state like the USSR would have been dissolved once it's capital had been conquered.

Scheil on the aims of Barbarossa:

Guidelines written by Goebbels for Russian language propaganda: “no anti-socialism, no return to Czarism, not openly pursue destruction of Russian state, otherwise we will get into conflict with the army, who thinks is Great Russian terms; go against Stalin and his Jewish handlers, land for farmers, but for the time being keep the Collectives, so that at least the harvest will be saved, sharply condemn Bolshevism and it’s failurers in all areas.”

[370] It was propaganda, but it is surprising that in those texts nothing cound be found that spoke of the Slavs as ‘subhumans’ (Untermenschen)… The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht hardly ever or never used these terms. The war against the USSR was portrayed, not as a war of conquest, but rather both as a military operation against a planned Soviet was of agression as well as a war of liberation, that by decomposing the USSR aimed for removing the military pressure on Germany and Europe that had been exerted since the 18th century.

The German attack on the USSR should dissolve the Russian state in single national entities. According to Hitler this was the only way arrive at peace.

[371] Summing up Hitler’s goal: “It is our task, with a minimal military force, to build several socialist states that depend on us.”.

During the initial stages of the operation, German troops often were cheered as liberators.

When the Red Army had returned to the outskirts of Minsk, there were still seminars being held to train for a Belorussian elite.

Corsair:

Given how vastly overconfident and hugely unprepared Germany was for the realities of invading Russia, that is unlikely. Germany paid little attention to the logistical problems posed by its Russian invasion, and never made any contingency provisions if everything didn't go exactly according to plan. Moreover, the weather conditions in May of 1941 were less than favourable, with a quite wet spring in western Russia rendering many of the roads effectively impassable, so it is unlikely the Germans could have invaded then even if they had wanted to. June was consequently always the more reasonable launching date.

You portray the planning of the Germans as carelessness, a very un-German trait. In reality they were overstreched and realized full well that they had no plan B and that the war would be lost if this campaign failed. Molotov had said in his memoirs that the Germans had no choice but to attack (page 23)...

Q: And maybe Stalin overestimated Hitler? Maybe he thought Hitler was smart enough not to attack us until he finished the war with England?
Molotov: That’s right, that’s right. Not only Stalin had this feeling but I and others did, too. On the other hand, there was nothing left for Hitler to do but attack us. He would never have finished his war with England – you just try to finish a war with England!

... and Nuremberg judge Robert Jackson basically discovered the same thing when he was told to build a case to frame the Germans in that stalinistic show trial you and the Soviets organized to consolidate your European conquest in a war of choice, both for you and the Soviets.

 

[9/11-investigator]

I just want to reiterate a point so that everyone can enjoy:

911I posted a document from the British Archives that he claimed proved his point. It is, in fact, a summary of a much longer document that I now have in my possession. I'm happy to share it with folks if they desire. Send me a PM for more info.

Correction on earlier post: It is Section 16 of the document that lays out the necessity for Norwegian cooperation.

Why not post it? Got something to hide?

 

[Wroclaw]

Well, what do you know? Vice Admiral Wolfgang Wegener wrote a book in 1929 — 1929! — entitled Sea Strategy in the World War. Here's a taste:

Wegener argued that the primary mission of the German Navy in any future conflict was to keep the sea lanes open for German merchant shipping, and that this could not be accomplished from German or Danish harbors.

So he suggested one of two options to achieve this. The first was to invade France. Do you wonder what his other suggestion was?

Well, do you, Tiny?

 

[Wroclaw]

Why not post it? Got something to hide?

It's too long to post here.