Who started both World Wars?

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Again with the insults while I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion. Is it some sort of illness ?

No, just fighting back.

It does not matter whether Jews/Palestinians, Christians/Muslims everywhere (take Lebanon), the 3 muslim factions in Iraq, Turks/Kurds, Serbs/Croats/Albanians, Hutu's/Tutsi's, Germans/Poles, etc., etc., they compete, fight and in the end separate.


French/English Canadians ?

Belz simply ignores my counter examples (they are 'pessimistic' and hence not real). I vagelue remember that the Quebecois wanted their 'distinct society'. Ever heard of Vive le Québec libre? The reason why the anglo- and franco-phones have not gone at each other throats is because Canada is federal, maybe comparable with Switzerland:

Quebec is not explicitly declared distinct in the Constitution of Canada, however constitutional scholar Peter Hogg argues that several parts of the Constitution already indicate Quebec has distinctiveness that should be reflected in law. Canadian federalism itself, bilingualism in the federal and Quebec legislatures, educational rights, and the acknowledgment of the importance of Roman Catholicism in Quebec (versus the rest of Canada which is predominantly Protestant) were cited as examples.

And could it be that the communities are nowhere mixed on a 50-50 basis?


Pessimism and cynicism have always been inferior philosophies to realism and even optimism, because they twist reality to suit their pre-determined conclusions. You're the naive one.

This is the typical clash of progressive versus conservative world view. Belz is a lefty, meaning 'progressive', meaning ignoring all experience from history and merily marches forward towards a shining future. In the end, this avalange of good intentions ends in the Gulag and genocide. Again, millions and millions of people have died as a consequence of these 'progressive ideas' (Russia, China, Cambodja). The horror knows no end.

Perhaps I should be gassed, then...

There you have it again. As soon as you don't subscribe to the progessive ideas of the likes of Belz, you will be demonized. You want to know how the H-word story came about? Just look at what Belz just said. We don't like you, so we are going to accuse you of the most horrible crimes.
 
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Lloyd George thought that the treaty was too harsh, and that it would start another war in 25 years time. And right he was. But he signed the 'treaty' (robbery at gun point really) anyway.
Have you already looked into the Frankfurt Treaty and its terms? And really, how do the harsh terms of Versailles explain the carnage that Hitler unleashed over all of Europe? What had Holland, Denmark, Norway to do with it that they were overrun? Why an invasion plan for Switzerland? No, just Versailles is a far too facile explanation for WW2. The Allies didn't say a peep when Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland. They didn't say a peep even when he occupied Austria (which had never been German to begin with).

ddt says that he does not understand why the Germans committed the H-word. Neither do I.
And that's why you've become a Holocaust denier and peddle all lies that your fellow deniers liars have concocted.

In other words, the dregs of humanity, as Hitler had called them, presided behind the table.
Shouldn't you be pleased that the judge of 2/3 of the Jewry in the first Politburo sat on the bench? :rolleyes:

ddt once confessed that he played the piano with the, let's say '2 finger sytem', meaning he is not a very talented person.
I only confessed to sucking at playing Bach. I play quite a bit of Chopin - my favourite is the 3rd part of the 2nd sonata. Of course in the Paderewski edition (for your edification: Paderewski was both a talented concert pianist and the first prime minister of interwar Poland). So we're back on track. :D
 
IIRC, Stalin also proposed to just shoot 20,000 Nazis. Still, Nuremberg was a good idea, even if only for the precedent it set for other war tribunals.


I think Stalin's statement was made in jest to 'wind up' Churchill (it was made at a banquet at the Yalta Conference). Surprisingly, the Soviets pressed for the Nuremburg trials - then again they always enjoyed a good trial.

I have several grievances with the Nuremburg Tribunal. Firstly, it set an ugly precedent with respect to future war crime tribunals (the current Charles Taylor / Naomi Campbell trial being a good example). I don't think we need them - sovereign states have the legal apparatus to deal with murderers & ideally The leading Nazi criminals would have been tried in a German convened court subject to pre 1933 law. Failing that the Poles, French etc could have extradited them.

Secondly, I think some of the verdicts were perverse. Streicher got a death sentence despite the fact he was retired in disgrace before the start of the war or the holocaust. He may have been a disgusting, peverted, rabid antisemite but I don't think he deserved the rope. Speer on the other hand masterminded the Nazi war economy & was up to his neck in the slave labour issue & was effectively given a pass. Why? he was urbane, well educated & an 'attractive person' (but a much bigger criminal than Streicher)
 
Have you already looked into the Frankfurt Treaty and its terms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Frankfurt_(1871)

So, what is so outreageous? Oh, before you make a fool of yourself, it was France who started that war, just like in WW2. The problem was that Napolean III was just that, a 3rd rate Napoleon. The France of Lou14 and Nap1 was over and in decline (it will be an African colony soon with current trends). There was a new kid on the block now. And that was what caused all the damage and suffering of the next 75 years. Thank god we have the EU now and a dying 'protector'.

And really, how do the harsh terms of Versailles explain the carnage that Hitler unleashed over all of Europe?

Wait a minute, it was France and Britain who declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

What had Holland, Denmark, Norway to do with it that they were overrun?

The reason why Germany had to invade these countries was because Britain started to prepare for the invasion of Norway first, with the aim to cut of the iron ore supplies from Sweden to Germany. But being the incompetent Clouseaus that the British are, they blew it (British are only good at overrunning African territories). The Phoney War had ended and was replaced with another Phoney War, namely one 'masterminded' by that drunken hooligan Churchill.

Why an invasion plan for Switzerland?

There is no distinction for you between a piece of paper and the reality of a true invasion, is there? For your information, large parts of France were never occupied by the Germans. Do you understand why? Because these territories could not be invaded from the sea, that's why.

No, just Versailles is a far too facile explanation for WW2.

It is indeed a too facile explanation. Behind Versailles stands the real issue, namely that France and Britain never accepted the emergence of a 80 million state of very talented people in the first place. It had overthrown the entire balance of power in Europe. That was the real cause of WW1, resulting (via the Jews/Balfour) in Versailles, resulting in WW2.

The Allies didn't say a peep when Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland.

Why should Germany give a peep if the English army invades Kent?

They didn't say a peep even when he occupied Austria (which had never been German to begin with).

Any idea what language they are speaking in Vienna?

I know that lefties like you are never very concerned with what the population thinks (lefties call it 'populism'), because lefties know far better what is good for the population (Bolshevism, multiculturalism) than these suckers do, right.

Oh, and have a look at this, the reception the Austrians gave to Hitler in 1938. Do not see this happening to your Wouter Bos or Job Cohen any time soon. :D

Shouldn't you be pleased that the judge of 2/3 of the Jewry in the first Politburo sat on the bench? :rolleyes:

Why should I be pleased?
 
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No, just fighting back.

Against what ?

(they are 'pessimistic' and hence not real).

Strawman.

I vagelue remember that the Quebecois wanted their 'distinct society'.

Yeah, back 30 years ago :rolleyes:

The reason why the anglo- and franco-phones have not gone at each other throats is because Canada is federal

Or maybe because we use other means to settle our differences.

And could it be that the communities are nowhere mixed on a 50-50 basis?

Ever been to Montréal ?

This is the typical clash of progressive versus conservative world view.

What does it have to do with pessimism vs realism ?

Belz is a lefty, meaning 'progressive'

BZZZZT. Wrong.

Again, millions and millions of people have died as a consequence of these 'progressive ideas' (Russia, China, Cambodja). The horror knows no end.

I'd like to remind you of the millions who died because of conservative views as well. What kills people in those instances is xenophobia, and fanatacism.

There you have it again. As soon as you don't subscribe to the progessive ideas of the likes of Belz, you will be demonized.

Your reading comprehension is abysmal and laughable. Perhaps you should attempt to understand the conversation we're having rather than look for "gotcha" moments that only prove that you haven't.

You want to know how the H-word story came about? Just look at what Belz just said. We don't like you, so we are going to accuse you of the most horrible crimes.

I never accused you of a crime, and you know it.
 
I have several grievances with the Nuremburg Tribunal. Firstly, it set an ugly precedent with respect to future war crime tribunals (the current Charles Taylor / Naomi Campbell trial being a good example). I don't think we need them - sovereign states have the legal apparatus to deal with murderers & ideally The leading Nazi criminals would have been tried in a German convened court subject to pre 1933 law. Failing that the Poles, French etc could have extradited them.
Sorry if I'm less optimistic about German courts convicting them. They wouldn't have extradited them as Germany doesn't extradite German citizens. And most perversely, Germany was about the last country where they committed war crimes. An international tribunal does more justice to the international character of their crimes.

And the Naomi Campbell stuff - well, that's the media. We haven't had such stuff with the Yugoslav tribunal nor with the Rwandan tribunal.

Secondly, I think some of the verdicts were perverse. <snip> Speer on the other hand masterminded the Nazi war economy & was up to his neck in the slave labour issue & was effectively given a pass. Why? he was urbane, well educated & an 'attractive person' (but a much bigger criminal than Streicher)
You forgot the most important aspect why Speer got off lightly: he plead guilty and showed remorse.

Many years ago, I had a discussion with a friend about the verdicts for Jodl and Keitel. We both agreed that the death sentence was appropriate, but he argued that, as they were soldiers, they should have been executed by firing squad and not by hanging. I argued that their signing of the Kommissarbefehle went beyond their role as soldier.
 
Many years ago, I had a discussion with a friend about the verdicts for Jodl and Keitel. We both agreed that the death sentence was appropriate, but he argued that, as they were soldiers, they should have been executed by firing squad and not by hanging. I argued that their signing of the Kommissarbefehle went beyond their role as soldier.

& yet generals like Von Manstein & Guderian both of who signed the Kommisar Order both got 'passes'. Manstein perhaps because he was regarded as a 'jolly good chap' having a 'von' in his surname.

How come a predatory monster like Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski only spent a few years in jail?

The whole thing was a mess.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Frankfurt_(1871)

So, what is so outreageous? Oh, before you make a fool of yourself, it was France who started that war, just like in WW2.
...snip...
Wait a minute, it was France and Britain who declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

For gods sake, do you really not understand what alliances mean? You know, "we'll support you if you're attacked". Especially in relation to someone who had only recently reneged on a deal over another country?

And as for France "starting" WW2, does that mean they're Anglos now? I bet that would please them to know...
 
For gods sake, do you really not understand what alliances mean? You know, "we'll support you if you're attacked". Especially in relation to someone who had only recently reneged on a deal over another country?

OK. But why didn't you send food parcels to the Poles to show your support? Why had it be a declaration of war? Against Germany, of all countries? :D Seriously, the Germans would never have attacked France had Churchill not turned the Phoney War into a real war by preparing for an invasion of Norway. There still was this peace offer on the table that Hitler had made on October 6, 1939, and on later occasions (the flight of Hess was one among them).

And as for France "starting" WW2, does that mean they're Anglos now? I bet that would please them to know...

Good point. Maybe I am not taking the French serious enough. :rolleyes:

But I still need them after we have got rid of you. That's why I am kind to them.
 
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Seriously, the Germans would never have attacked France had Churchill not turned the Phoney War into a real war by preparing for an invasion of Norway.

You're making this up as you go along, aren't you?

Try it this way.

Learn history FIRST.

THEN pronounce your sweeping interpretations of past events.
 
You're making this up as you go along, aren't you?

Try it this way.

Learn history FIRST.

THEN pronounce your sweeping interpretations of past events.

I know that talking crap about stuff you know nothing about makes up about 60% of the traffic on the Internet,but some people take it to extremes.
 
Speer on the other hand masterminded the Nazi war economy & was up to his neck in the slave labour issue & was effectively given a pass. Why? he was urbane, well educated & an 'attractive person' (but a much bigger criminal than Streicher)

He also apologized. I bet the other Nazis were kicking themselves for not thinking of that.
 
First, let's look at the reparations. Those were 20 to 25% of the French GDP (link) and had to be paid within 3 years - for a war that lasted less than a year and left both countries relatively unscathed.

By comparison, the German war reparations in 1919 amounted to 83% GDP that could be paid at a much longer term, for a war that lasted 4 years and in which Germany willfully destroyed French and Belgian industry and infrastructure, while Germany's own industrial base was unharmed. Really, I never understood the German whining about the height of the reparations.

Then there's the territorial changes. France lost 20% of its industrial base with Alsace-Lorraine. Apart from Upper Silesia, the territorial loss of Germany in 1919 had no big economic relevance.

Lastly, in 1871, Germany kept parts of France occupied until the reparations were paid. In this respect, Versailles was much more lenient. France only occupied the Rhineland after Germany defaulted on its payments.

Oh, before you make a fool of yourself, it was France who started that war,
Not relevant.

just like in WW2.
Lying for Dolfie, again?

There was a new kid on the block now. And that was what caused all the damage and suffering of the next 75 years.
Indeed, because of that new kid's Sonderweg.

The reason why Germany had to invade these countries was because Britain started to prepare for the invasion of Norway first, with the aim to cut of the iron ore supplies from Sweden to Germany.
Evidence for invasion plans, please? Only minelaying.

And what has this to do with Holland? Looking at a map, it doesn't lie on the route from Norway to Germany. Let's also add Belgium and Luxembourg to the list.

There is no distinction for you between a piece of paper and the reality of a true invasion, is there?
You repeatedly failed to give an answer to this. So, why a plan at all for invading Switzerland?


For your information, large parts of France were never occupied by the Germans. Do you understand why? Because these territories could not be invaded from the sea, that's why.
I see we can add the fact that Nazi Germany occupied Vichy France in November 1942 to the list.

It is indeed a too facile explanation. Behind Versailles stands the real issue, namely that France and Britain never accepted the emergence of a 80 million state of very talented people in the first place. It had overthrown the entire balance of power in Europe. That was the real cause of WW1, resulting (via the Jews/Balfour) in Versailles, resulting in WW2.
Ever those Jews, but you never can name them. Aren't you confusing them with the lizard people?

Fact of the matter is that Germany, after Bismarck's dismissal, wasn't ruled by talented people, but by a dimwitted emperor and militaristic types like Tirpitz who continuously veered to the brink of war.

Why should Germany give a peep if the English army invades Kent?
Another one for the list. Under Versailles, the Rhineland was to be demilitarized.

Any idea what language they are speaking in Vienna?
And what language do they speak in Antwerp?
 
Nein/11 confabulator's Ignorance List

This list compiles all major issues coming up in this discussion of which the OP turned out to be ignorant.

World War One:
- Zimmermann Telegram

Versailles Treaty
- Treaty of Frankfurt 1871 and its terms
- Demilitarization of the Rhineland

World War Two:
- Polish basic history, e.g., Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Polish Partitions
- Ethnic make-up of Poland inter-war
- Polish-Russian war and Peace of Riga
- The General-Government
- Generalplan Ost, both the plans and the executed mass expulsions
- Czech basic history
- Oderberg & Teschen were in Czechoslovakia, and had never been German
- Sudetenland never was part of Germany
- Nazi occupation of the Czech rump state in March 1939
- Operation Tannenbaum (invasion plans of Switzerland)
- British Press were neither controlled by nor sympathetic to the Jews
- ca. 6 million Poles deported by the Germans, roughly half of them not Jewish
- Vichy France occupied in November 1942
 
Nein/11 confabulator's Ignorance List

This list compiles all major issues coming up in this discussion of which the OP turned out to be ignorant.

World War One:
- Zimmermann Telegram

Versailles Treaty
- Treaty of Frankfurt 1871 and its terms
- Demilitarization of the Rhineland

World War Two:
- Polish basic history, e.g., Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Polish Partitions
- Ethnic make-up of Poland inter-war
- Polish-Russian war and Peace of Riga
- The General-Government
- Generalplan Ost, both the plans and the executed mass expulsions
- Czech basic history
- Oderberg & Teschen were in Czechoslovakia, and had never been German
- Sudetenland never was part of Germany
- Nazi occupation of the Czech rump state in March 1939
- Operation Tannenbaum (invasion plans of Switzerland)
- British Press were neither controlled by nor sympathetic to the Jews
- ca. 6 million Poles deported by the Germans, roughly half of them not Jewish
- Vichy France occupied in November 1942

Thank you for the check list,it saves looking through his posts,once is enough.
 
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