Who started both World Wars?

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OK. Churchill's post doesn't say he didn't understand why America entered the war when it did. It just says that he could see reasons for them not to. Buchanan is misrepresenting that quote, as I'd expect of him.



Dave

From the rest of Churchills quote (the bits not quoted) it is clear that he had a good understanding of why America joined when it did. It is for other reasons that he rather wished they had not. Churchill also had about 20 years hindsight when writing this.
 
OK. Churchill's post doesn't say he didn't understand why America entered the war when it did. It just says that he could see reasons for them not to. Buchanan is misrepresenting that quote, as I'd expect of him.

Nitpicking. Here is the quote again:

Churchill: "American historians will perhaps be somewhat lengthy in explaining to posterity why the United States entered the Great War on April 6, 1917... American ships had been sunk before by German submarines; as many American lives were lost in the Lusitania as in all the 5 ships whose sinking immediately preceded the declaration of war..."

"There were plenty of reasons of high policy for [America] staying out in 1917 after waiting so long", Churchill concluded


Churchill says that there were no clear reasons for the US to enter the war, the cost of which far outweighs the cost of a few ships carrying supplies to one of the war parties ("free trade").

I'll leave it to loathsome racist scum to decide if it's relevant to anything whether I am or am not Jewish.

I leave it to idiots to believe that somebodies identity is irrelevant for his interpretation of history.
Gareth has no trouble admitting he is Welsh/Dutch. I have no trouble stating that I am Dutch. But Dave has reservations (with foam on his lips, acting as being caught). Just like Trojan. 'Wonder' why is that (not really).
 
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It is unclear what Dave wants to prove with this stupid telegram. Here is the full text:

"Wir beabsichtigen, am ersten Februar uneingeschränkten U-Boot-Krieg zu beginnen. Es wird versucht werden, Amerika trotzdem neutral zu halten. Für den Fall, dass dies nicht gelingen sollte, schlagen wir Mexiko auf folgender Grundlage Bündnis vor. Gemeinsame Kriegführung. Gemeinsamer Friedensschluss. Reichlich finanzielle Unterstützung und Einverständnis unsererseits, dass Mexiko in Texas, Neu Mexico, Arizona früher verlorenes Gebiet zurückerobert. Regelung im einzelnen Euer Hochwohlgeborenen überlassen. Euer Hochwohlgeborenen wollen Vorstehendes Präsidenten streng geheim eröffnen, sobald Kriegsausbruch mit Vereinigten Staaten feststeht, und Anregung hinzufügen, Japan von sich aus zu sofortigem Beitritt einzuladen und gleichzeitig zwischen uns und Japan zu vermitteln. Bitte Präsidenten darauf hinweisen, dass rücksichtslose Anwendung unserer U-Boote jetzt Aussicht bietet, England in wenigen Monaten zum Frieden zu zwingen. Empfang bestätigen.

Zimmermann"


So what was the aim of this German exercise: to force Britain to peace!!!

It was Britain who wanted war!! It was Britain who wanted to destroy Germany at all cost. It was sh***y little Britain who had never accepted that Germany existed since 1870 in the first place!
 
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You must have missed the holocaust thread kindly named after me. I am open to listen to horror stories as told by my Anglo friends here. Not convinced so far.

Yep. That's exactly what I meant. Genocides tend to escape your attention. ;)
 
"American historians will perhaps be somewhat lengthy in explaining to posterity exactly why the United States entered the Great War on April 6, 1917, and why they did not enter at any earlier moment. American ships had been sunk before by German submarines; as many American lives were lost in the Lusitania as in all the five American ships whose sinking immediately preceded the declaration of war. As for the general cause of the Allies, if it was good in 1917, was it not equally good in 1914? There were plenty of reasons of high policy for staying out in 1917 after waiting so long.

It was natural that the Allies, burning with indignation against Germany, breathless and bleeding in the struggle, face to face with mortal dangers, should stand amazed at the cool, critical, detached attitude of the great Power across the Atlantic [the U.S.]. In England particularly, where laws and language seemed to make a bridge of mutual comprehension between the two nations, the American abstention was hard to understand. But this was to do less than justice to important factors in the case. (2)




The United States did not feel in any immediate danger. Time and distance interposed their minimizing perspectives. The mass of the people engaged in peaceful industry, grappling with the undeveloped resources of the continent which was their inheritance, absorbed in domestic life and politics, taught by long constitutional tradition to shun foreign entanglements, had an entirely different field of mental interest from that of Europe. World Justice makes it appeal to all men. But what share, it was asked, had Americans taken in bringing about the situation which had raised the issue of World Justice? Was even this issue so simple as it appeared to the Allies? Was it not a frightful responsibility to launch a vast, unarmed, remote community [the U.S.] into the raging centre of such a quarrel? That all this was overcome is the real wonder. All honour to those who never doubted, and who from the first discerned the inevitable path. (2)


The rigid Constitution of the United States, the gigantic scale and strength of its party machinery, the fixed terms for which public officers and representatives are chosen, invest the President with a greater measure of autocratic power than was possessed before the war by the Head of any great State. The vast size of the country, the diverse types, interests and environments of its enormous population, the safety-valve function of the legislatures of fifty Sovereign States, make the focusing of national public opinion difficult, and confer upon the Federal Government exceptional independence of it except at fixed election times. Few modern Governments need to concern themselves so little with the opinion of the party they have beaten at the polls; none secures to its supreme executive officer, at once the Sovereign and the Party Leader, such direct personal authority.

The accident of hereditary succession which brings a King or Emperor to the throne occurs on the average at intervals of a quarter of a century. During this long period, as well as in his whole life before accession, the qualities and disposition of the monarch can be studied by his subjects, and during this period parties and classes are often able to devise and create checks and counter-checks upon personal action. In limited monarchies where the responsibilities of power are borne by the Prime Minister, the choice of the nation usually falls upon Statesmen who have lived their lives in the public eye, who are moreover members of the Legislature and continuously accountable to it for their tenure.

But the magnitude and the character of the electoral processes of the United States make it increasingly difficult, if not indeed already impossible, for any life-long politician to become a successful candidate for the Presidency. The choice of the party managers tends more and more to fall upon eminent citizens of high personal character and civic virtue who have not mingled profoundly in politics or administration, and who in consequence are free from the animosities and the errors which such combative an anxious experiences involve. More often than not the champion selected for the enthusiasms and ideals of tens of millions is unversed in State affairs, and raised suddenly to dazzling pre-eminence on the spur of the moment. The war-stained veterans of the party battle select, after many fierce internal convulsions, a blameless and honourable figure to bear aloft the party standard. They manufacture his programme and his policy, and if successful in the battle install him for four years at the summit of the State, clothed thenceforward with direct executive functions which practical importance are not surpassed on the globe.


Like all brief generalizations upon great matters, the foregoing paragraph is subject to numerous and noteworthy exceptions. But President Wilson was not one of them. In all his strength and in all his weakness, in his nobility and in his foibles, he was, in spite of his long academic record and brief governorship [two years, 1911-1913] an unknown, an unmeasured quantity to the mighty people who made him their ruler in 1912. Still more was he a mystery to the world at large. Writing with every sense of respect, it seems no exaggeration to pronounce that the action of the United States with its repercussions on the history of the world depended, during the awful period of Armageddon, upon the workings of this man’s mind and spirit to the exclusion of almost every other factor; and that he played a part in the fate of nations incomparably more direct and personal than any other man.



It is in this light that the Memoirs of Colonel House [senior policy advisor to Wilson] acquire their peculiar interest. In these pages we see a revelation of the President. Dwelling in the bosom of his domestic circle [wife and three daughters] with the simplicity and frugality of [Russian Tsar] Nicholas II, inaccessible except to friends and servitors—and very sparingly to them—towering above Congress, the Cabinet his mere implement, untempered and undinted in the smithy of public life, and guided by that “frequent recurrence to first principles” enjoined in the American Constitution, Woodrow Wilson, the inscrutable and undecided judge upon whose lips the lives of millions hung, stands forth a monument for human meditation.



First and foremost, all through and last, he was a Party man. His dominating loyalty was to the great political association which had raised him to the Presidency, and on whose continued prosperity he was sincerely convinced the best interests of mankind depended. We see him in the height of the American war effort, when all that the Union could give without distinction of class or party was lavished upon the Government of the day, using his natural position without scruple or apparent self-examination to procure the return to Congress of only those representatives whose names were on the Democratic ticket. Under his regime there were none of those temporary sacrifices of party rancor which were forced on European countries by their perils. The whole power and prestige of the American nation at war was politically impounded so far as possible by the office holders of the day and the party machine. This bred a hatred among political opponents whose sons were fighting, whose money was poured out, whose patriotism was ardent, which as soon as the fighting stopped, proved fatal to President Wilson and his hopes [Wilson’s League of Nations floundered in the U.S]. Next he was a good American, an academic Liberal, and a sincere hater of war and violence. Upon these easily harmonized impulsions there had fallen in intense interplay such of the stresses of the European war as rolled across the Atlantic, and all the internal pressures of American policy. He was confronted with four separate successive questions which searched his nature to its depths. How to keep the United States out of the war? How to win the Presidential election of 1916? How to help the Allies to win the war? And lastly, How to rule the world at its close?


He would have been greatly helped in his task if he had reached a definite conclusion where in the European struggle Right lay. Events like the German march through Belgium, or the sinking of the Lusitania, had a meaning which was apparent to friend and foe. They both proclaimed the intention to use force without any limit of forbearance to an absolute conclusion. Such a prospect directly affected the interests and indeed the safety of the United States. The victory of Germany and the concomitant disappearance of France and the British Empire as great Powers must, after an uncertain interval, have left the peaceful and unarmed population of the United States nakedly exposed to the triumph of the doctrine of Force without limit. The Teutonic Empires in the years following their victory would have been far stronger by land and sea than the United States. They could easily have placed themselves in a more favorable relationship with Japan than was open to the United States. In such a situation their views upon the destinies of South America could not have been effectively resisted. Immense developments of armed force would in any case have been required in the United States, and sooner or later a new conflict must have arisen in which the United States would have found herself alone.


President Wilson did not however during the first two and a half years of the war allow his mind to dwell upon the German use of force without restraint, and still less upon the ultimate consequences of its success. He did not therefore feel that American interests were involved from the outset in the European struggle. He distrusted and repressed those sentiments of indignation which the scenes in Belgium and the sinking of the Lusitania aroused in his breast. He did not truly divine the instinct of the American people. He under-estimated the volume and undervalued the quality of the American feeling in favour of the Allies. Not until he was actually delivering his famous war message to Congress did he understand where, in the vast medley of American opinion, the dominant will-power of the nation lay and had always lain. Not until then did he move forward with confidence and conviction; not until then did he restate the cause of the Allies in terms unsurpassed by any of their own statesmen; not until then did he reveal to the American people where in his judgment world-right was founded and how their own lives and material interests were at stake…

Step by step the President had been pursued and brought to bay. By slow merciless degrees, against his dearest hopes, against his gravest doubts, against his deepest inclinations, in stultification of all he had said and done and left undone in thirty months of carnage, he was forced to give the signal he dreaded and abhorred. Throughout he had been beneath the true dominant note of American sentiment. He had behind his policy a reasoned explanation and massive argument, and all must respect the motives of a statesman who seeks to spare his country the waste and horrors of war. But nothing can reconcile what he said after March, 1917, with the guidance he had given before. What he did in April, 1917, could have been done in May, 1915. And if done then what abridgement of the slaughter; what sparing of the agony; what ruin, what catastrophes would have been prevented; in how many million homes would an empty chair be occupied today; how different would be the shattered world in which victors and vanquished alike are condemned to live!..."
 
It is unclear what Dave wants to prove with this stupid telegram. Here is the full text:

"Wir beabsichtigen, am ersten Februar uneingeschränkten U-Boot-Krieg zu beginnen. Es wird versucht werden, Amerika trotzdem neutral zu halten. Für den Fall, dass dies nicht gelingen sollte, schlagen wir Mexiko auf folgender Grundlage Bündnis vor. [...blablabla...] England in wenigen Monaten zum Frieden zu zwingen. Empfang bestätigen[/B].

Zimmermann"


So what was the aim of this German exercise: to force Britain to peace!!!

It was Britain who wanted war!! It was Britain who wanted to destroy Germany at all cost. It was plucky little Britain who had never accepted that Germany existed since 1870 in the first place!

All war is an excercise in forcing the other side to peace. On one's own term.
Accepting THAT peace is the usual way of LOSING a war.

You don't expect Britain (and America) to lose the war when they had good chances of winning it, don't you?

Then again, the content of that telegram was megalomaniacal at best. As history proves: America was not kept out of the war, Japan lost big time, Mexico never dared enter (and would have stood not the slightest chance), Britains supply was uninterrupted, eventually the British navy trumped the German, and Germany accepted the peace - on allied terms.
 

If the British were so cleverly orchestrating the war and manipulating the Americans, how come Britain was among the net losers of the war (losing the rest of their empire as a result) and USA was among the net winners (rising to undisputed superpower of the west, leader of most of the west, and inheriting a large portion of the business of the old European colonies)?

If the Poles were somehow to blame for the start of the war, how come they never stood a chance from day 1, lost millions of their people, were tossed around at will geographically? Why should the Poles have started a war from a position of utter weakness?
 
It is unclear what Dave wants to prove with this stupid telegram. Here is the full text:

"Wir beabsichtigen, am ersten Februar uneingeschränkten U-Boot-Krieg zu beginnen. Es wird versucht werden, Amerika trotzdem neutral zu halten. Für den Fall, dass dies nicht gelingen sollte, schlagen wir Mexiko auf folgender Grundlage Bündnis vor. Gemeinsame Kriegführung. Gemeinsamer Friedensschluss. Reichlich finanzielle Unterstützung und Einverständnis unsererseits, dass Mexiko in Texas, Neu Mexico, Arizona früher verlorenes Gebiet zurückerobert. Regelung im einzelnen Euer Hochwohlgeborenen überlassen. Euer Hochwohlgeborenen wollen Vorstehendes Präsidenten streng geheim eröffnen, sobald Kriegsausbruch mit Vereinigten Staaten feststeht, und Anregung hinzufügen, Japan von sich aus zu sofortigem Beitritt einzuladen und gleichzeitig zwischen uns und Japan zu vermitteln. Bitte Präsidenten darauf hinweisen, dass rücksichtslose Anwendung unserer U-Boote jetzt Aussicht bietet, England in wenigen Monaten zum Frieden zu zwingen. Empfang bestätigen.

Zimmermann"


So what was the aim of this German exercise: to force Britain to peace!!!

It was Britain who wanted war!! It was Britain who wanted to destroy Germany at all cost. It was sh***y little Britain who had never accepted that Germany existed since 1870 in the first place!

"Reckless use of U-boats", yup, that will do the trick (results may vary).

P.S. there may be a touch of bitterness peeking through in the latter part of your post.
 
P.S. there may be a touch of bitterness peeking through in the latter part of your post.

You are correct in that observation.

But hey, after the USSR, soon the US will sink through it's knees and we will have a new game as a consequence. See this collection of threads as an early bird.
 
Britain wanted war? I think I showed why that's a unsupportable stance previously, with my information on Tirpitz's Risk Theory. The Germans built up their High Seas Fleet in such manner as to threaten Britain into seeking an alliance with Germany. It didn't work that way, and instead Britain allied with Japan, France and Russia.
 
If the British were so cleverly orchestrating the war and manipulating the Americans, how come Britain was among the net losers of the war (losing the rest of their empire as a result) and USA was among the net winners (rising to undisputed superpower of the west, leader of most of the west, and inheriting a large portion of the business of the old European colonies)?

You are mixing up wars, there were 2 remember. Britain did not lose it's empire after 1918, it did after 1945. The Americans btw were very willing helping Britain out of it's imperial trousers. During WW1 Britain was still predominantly ruled by these top hat figures, many of them fine anti-semites (anti-semites as in understanding what the Jews were up to). Balfour himself was a hardcore anti-semite.

It was Churchill however, this totally corrupt drunken hooligan, who was the key to Britain losing it's empire. Churchill should be understood as a foreigner, as a half-American, probably as a secular half-Jew. He was bought and paid for by rich Jews from The City. That's the secret about the demise of the British empire. The British empire was sacrificed by Churchill for the interests of [HenryFord]The International Jew[/henryFord]s. They did not care about Britain and it's empire, after all they had the US.

If the Poles were somehow to blame for the start of the war, how come they never stood a chance from day 1, lost millions of their people, were tossed around at will geographically? Why should the Poles have started a war from a position of utter weakness?

Why do you bring up the Poles? But now that you mention it, this will be part of the discussion later on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwvKbEMMcTw
 
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Actually, Suez is considered a better starting point for the rapid decline in the British Empire, not WW2.
 
It is unclear what Dave wants to prove with this stupid telegram. Here is the full text:

Here's an extract from the English translation, in case you didn't want the majority of posters to understand it:

We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

"Unrestricted submarine warfare" means that the German Navy intended, as a matter of policy, to sink American merchant ships, on sight, without warning, and without regard to the safety of their crews. The proposal to Mexico was an alliance in pursuit of invasion of the United States and seizure of US territory. And this, in 9/11-investigator's bizarre universe, is not sufficient grounds for a declaration of war.

Thanks to Sanity Gap for the extended Churchill quote. I haven't read the original, so I couldn't be entirely sure that Buchanan was blatantly and dishonestly quote mining Churchill and then misrepresenting his opinions in his own editorialising, but my quote mine canary was already falling off his perch. The full quote simply confirms that impression. Clearly, Churchill isn't in the least uncertain about why America declared war when it did; he's just raising what he saw as Wilson's potential excuses for not doing what Churchill firmly believed was the right thing sooner, in order to dispose of them more fully. Classic quote mine material; whenever anyone attempts to give a discussion of both sides of a question, rogues and liars see an opening to misrepresent them.

Dave
 
I am not going to read all these links until you have made your point in a few lines first. If your point is interesting than maybe I will read these links.

Just maybe.


I inserted the links in order to provide a source for the quotation, and a source for the diplomatic note that prompted the quoted communication.

I think my point is fairly obvious, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you aren't being deliberately obtuse.

You stated, "Country A delivering war material to country B, which is at war with country C, is a clear act of war of country A towards country C."

The quotation demonstrates the fallacy of your claim, because Germany sold large quantities of munitions to belligerents during several wars prior to World War I.
 
Jews have lived in Great Britain since the 6th century, and yet 9-11 Investigator considers them to be "foreigners" to England.

Some of my ancestors are from Ukraine. Jews have been in Ukraine for more than 2,000 years. Were my grandparents foreigners in Ukraine?

The fact is, Jews have been in Italy, Greece, Turkey, and other parts of Souther Europe since before Jesus, and many more parts of Europe after the 2nd century.

We are NOT foreigners...in Europe.

sorry for the derail, but bigotry must be confronted with truth.
 
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Apparently the definition of "Jew" is "someone who doesn't agree with Nazis" now. Maybe that's why, apparently, I'm now Jewish.

Dave


Same here. Just call me Jew SpitfireIX.


1706047ab7bdcb76fd.jpg
 
"Unrestricted submarine warfare" means that the German Navy intended, as a matter of policy, to sink American merchant ships, on sight, without warning, and without regard to the safety of their crews. The proposal to Mexico was an alliance in pursuit of invasion of the United States and seizure of US territory. And this, in 9/11-investigator's bizarre universe, is not sufficient grounds for a declaration of war.

Liar. You are leaving an essential part out. The invasion (solely to be carried out by Mexico) should take place if the US would declare war on Germany. It was a pure defensive measure. It was a ridiculous operette kind of proposal. Not even Mexico took it seriously.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/zimmermann_speech.htm
Zimmermann argued that there was nothing reprehensible in sending such a telegram, since Germany only intended to seek an alliance with Mexico were the U.S. to open hostilities against Germany.

What I see here is the total naivite of a diplomacy of a country that was merely 45 years old. The Germans acted as provincials on the international stage because they were provincials. They did not have the sophistication like the other Western European nations with their centuries old experience in the international arena. The British arrogantly looked down upon them.


We intend to begin on the first of February unrestricted submarine warfare. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States of America neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of alliance on the following basis: make war together, make peace together, generous financial support and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

The intent is clear: not to make more enemies then they already have.
 
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