Who squirms at the word bright?

[rebecca]

As I said, this is self-deprecation. There's a difference between a black man calling himself a "n!gger" and a white man calling him one.

I am heterosexual. I have used the term "Queer." No one has ever had a problem with it. I am white. I never, ever use the n-word. There is a difference.

Now I don't get you. On the one hand, you're admitting that "queer" is an insult, and on the other, you're saying that it isn't. The difference between "queer" and"gay" is that "queer" is intended as an insult, so every use of it is insulting (except in cases on self-empowerment), whereas "gay" is only insulting if you believe homosexuality per se is unacceptable.

I'm afraid you don't "get" me because you're misunderstanding my posts. If you go back and reread my first post, you will see that I never said queer is an insult. I said that any word can be an insult if you say it in an insulting way. This is the only way that I can imagine one taking offense at the term.

Yes, all gays I know object to being called "queer". Even movies like the (admittedly excrable) "Warlock" made the explicit distinction between "queer" and "gay" .

I've never seen "Warlock," so I looked it up on IMDB. I assume you mean the 1989 movie. I have no idea what it said about the term "queer," but more importantly, I have no idea why a sane person would cite a 15 year old sub-par horror flick as evidence and yet dismiss conflicting evidence of current media outlets like a weekly paper or three very popular television shows using the term in an accepted manner.

Also, I think you meant "execrable."

 

[davefoc]

I'm 54 and I think that makes a difference to this discussion about whether the use of the word queer is acceptable or is becoming acceptable as a slang synonym of homosexual.

Queer when I was younger was absolutely a vitriolic epithet.

I had not realized there had been any movement on that until queer eye for the straight guy came out. It now seems there has been a significant change in the intensity of the word when it is used to describe gay people. I wouldn't use the word myself. Gay seems to be reasonably respectful and descriptive so I don't need another word and see no need to experiment with a word that some will take offense at. But I might not dissasociate myself from a non-gay person that used it as I would dissasociate myself from a white person that used the word, ni**er.

I wonder, what the new official JREF forum will have to say about the use of the word queer. I had something of a feel for the level of censorship in the old forum, especially since most of the decisions were about in sync with ones I would have made. I don't have much of a feel for what kinds of restrictions and censorship the new moderation will implement.

 

[Kimpatsu]

Hmm...I prefer to be clinical, so I just say 'homosexual'.

I think the one problem with that, Lucy, is that "homosexual" sounds stuffy, which is why the term "gay" was coined. Similarly (and to get this thread back on track), the reason why "bright" was termed was because "atheist" is perceived as stuffy in some quarters. Personally, I quite like the idea of being called a bright; what is it that makes others squirm? Because it's "artificial" and didn't arise spontaneously? Well, so is the word "quiz" artificial. RFather like Jordan's breasts; the opposition is artifical and blown out of all proportion.

 

[Kimpatsu]

I am heterosexual. I have used the term "Queer." No one has ever had a problem with it. I am white. I never, ever use the n-word. There is a difference.

Not to my gay friends there isn't.

I'm afraid you don't "get" me because you're misunderstanding my posts. If you go back and reread my first post, you will see that I never said queer is an insult. I said that any word can be an insult if you say it in an insulting way. This is the only way that I can imagine one taking offense at the term.

If you don't think "queer" is an insult, walk into a gay bar and demand to know in a lound voice how many queers are in the house. Then see what happens.

I've never seen "Warlock," so I looked it up on IMDB. I assume you mean the 1989 movie. I have no idea what it said about the term "queer," but more importantly, I have no idea why a sane person would cite a 15 year old sub-par horror flick as evidence and yet dismiss conflicting evidence of current media outlets like a weekly paper or three very popular television shows using the term in an accepted manner.

My point is that the movie scriptwriters knew enough about the difference to use it in the movie. I get the impression that in your limited experience of gays, you've never met one who explicitly objects to being called "queer", so you think the term is acceptable. This is akin to thinking that because no one in your hearing objects to you using "n!gger" to their face, that the term must be acceptable to all. Apathy-- i.e., it's just too much hard work to protest and keep on protesting-- causes many people just to remain silent rather than speaking out. I'm different, but then I have boundless energy...

Also, I think you meant "execrable."

Yeah; that's just a typo. I really should have proofread the post before sending, but I was in a hurry to get out.

 

[rebecca]

If you don't think "queer" is an insult, walk into a gay bar and demand to know in a lound voice how many queers are in the house. Then see what happens.

Why would I do that? See, to "demand" makes it sound like an insult. If I walked into a gay bar and asked in a loud voice "where are all my hot queer boys," I would get a free drink.

My point is that the movie scriptwriters knew enough about the difference to use it in the movie. I get the impression that in your limited experience of gays, you've never met one who explicitly objects to being called "queer", so you think the term is acceptable.

Why do you presume that my "experience of gays" is more limited than yours? Are we going to start whipping it out, so to speak, and list the homosexuals we know? I live in what is commonly known as the "gay neighborhood" of my city. I go out dancing with my gay friends at my gay bars and I have a gay old time of it. In a month I'm going to travel across the country to officiate the wedding of my two gay best friends. Technically, I'm not a "fag hag," but if I had no boyfriend and a few less interests and appealing qualities, sure, you could call me that.

But even with all that, I don't presume to know what offends every person on the planet. If I use the term "queer" and someone doesn't appreciate it, I will apologize and not use it in front of them anymore. My point is only that it is a generally accepted term by hetero and homosexuals.

This is akin to thinking that because no one in your hearing objects to you using "n!gger" to their face, that the term must be acceptable to all. Apathy-- i.e., it's just too much hard work to protest and keep on protesting-- causes many people just to remain silent rather than speaking out. I'm different, but then I have boundless energy...

I'm amused that you think the majority of the gay community is apathetic when it comes to fighting sterotypes. If any gay people around here had a problem with the word "queer," you'd better believe they'd be mailing letters by the bucketful to Bravo. Dan Savage would have written a tirade on it by now. There would be t-shirts with the word "queer" with a slash through it.

So anyway, I'll gladly concede that some people, somewhere, dislike the word, if that's what you're trying to say. Hey, you have a problem with it, and you're someone. But sorry, in my "limited" experience, it's OK here, and apparently you have nothing which shows otherwise.

 

[BillyJoe]

Kimpatsy,

I can't "go back", as I'm already here. They could, however, tell me to stay here...

Well you just missed the flavour of my post for your insistence on exactitude. Which says a lot I think.

In any case, in a sense, you are here in America, Fort Lauderdale, at the JREF, when you post here and so, in a sense, the moderators could tell you to "go back to Japan". Meaning "piss off".

regards,
BillyJoy

 

[BillyJoe]

As to the eradication of homonyms, yes, that's precisely the goal. Together with the elimination of split infinitives, dangling prepositions, and American spelling...

Split infinitives and dangling prepositions???
To boldly go into enemy territory, is that what you came here for.
But I'm with you on American spelling.

BJ
(Just joking about the American spelling)

 

[dann]

If I walked into a gay bar and asked in a loud voice "where are all my hot queer boys," I would get a free drink.

What would you get if you asked, "Where are all my hot bright boys?"?

 

[rebecca]

What would you get if you asked, "Where are all my hot bright boys?"?

A smug, self-satisfied lecture?

 

[RSLancastr]

Congratulations; regardless of intent, you have just eoffended every gay person on the planet.

You seem have a penchant for making grand, all-encompassing (and incorrect) statements.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Kimpatsu said-"No, you're wrong; no one, and I mean no one uses "queer" to mean "strange" any more. That use passed out of fashion 50 years ago."

Kimpatsu, no matter how sincerely you believe this, it is simply untrue. I only turned 49 last week and I have used "queer" in the sense of "odd" all my life. I still do. As do many other people I know all over the UK.

Far from Reg and I being old fogies, I think it is you who are out of date on this one: The general shift in popular attitude from hostility to acceptance of homosexuality means that "gay" has secured a safe niche, while "queer" has become tainted with homophobia and is fast declining in use, except in it's older sense of "odd". I bet in ten years it's use as a pejorative version of "gay" will be all but forgotten.

Out of interest, what meaning or baggage of association do you ascribe to the adverb "queerly"?

"Bright" seems to me to be a different thing entirely. I do not recall ever hearing the word used in conversation in the sense we are discussing here.

 

[Kerberos]

The few people who do use it are anachronistic. If you want to sound like a 19th century twot, I can't help that, but don't fool yourself into thinking you sound anything other than out of tune with the times.

Which I mentioned a long, long time ago, but a word being somewhat old-fashioned doesn't make it non-existing however shocking this may be to you there are in fact a number of old and old-fashioned people on this planet... Perhaps it's different on Saturn though.

 

[BillyJoe]

....the moderators could tell you to "go back to Japan". Meaning "piss off".

Aw come back, Kimpatsy, I didn't mean it. Where am I going to get my dose of fun now?

 

[rebecca]

Ba-dump-a-bump-bump

Not to beat a dead horse, but that's what I'm about to do anyway.

David Sedaris is a funny, funny writer of many short essays which have been collected into many great books.

His new book just came out in hardcover, and it's called "Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim," and on page 24, in the essay "The Ship Shape," he writes:

It was queer when people repeated their sentences twice, but we were willing to overlook it in exchange for a beach house.

The word is also used one more time later in the book, though I don't feel like looking it up.

This is an un-ironic use of the term "queer" to mean "strange, odd," in a mainstream book, published this year, written by a well-known and loved author.

Thank you and goodnight.

 

[Skipbidder]

Sedaris use of word "queer"

Not that I have a horse in this race at all, but are we sure that the use of the word "queer" by Sedaris is meant entirely the way you take it to be?

I can't read his books. They are missing an important component. I need to hear his voice. (I feel the same about Bill Bryson.)

 

[rebecca]

Re: Sedaris use of word "queer"

Not that I have a horse in this race at all, but are we sure that the use of the word "queer" by Sedaris is meant entirely the way you take it to be?

I can't read his books. They are missing an important component. I need to hear his voice. (I feel the same about Bill Bryson.)

I think the sentence I quoted is more than enough for a person to get the idea of his tone and meaning, but if you don't believe me, well, sorry, you'll just have to read the book because I'm not going to type it all out here.

 

[Loon]

It is also worth noting (if my recollection of "Me talk pretty one day" is correct) that Sedaris is gay, so his use of the word queer is relevant.

 

[rebecca]

It is also worth noting (if my recollection of "Me talk pretty one day" is correct) that Sedaris is gay, so his use of the word queer is relevant.

Yes, he's about as gay as they come. I suppose it is relevant, though it's more important to me that he's a well-established writer using the term with its original meaning.