feldesq
Student
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This entire thread misses the point. Just about anyone who could actually win the Challenge would have no reason to do so. If someone actually possessed supernatural powers (e.g., could read minds, communicate with the dead, move matter merely by their own will, locate precious metals using dowsing, diagnoze illness just by looking at someone's photo, etc.), why would they want to get involved with the JREF Challenge? They could become the richest person on Earth quite quickly. And think of all the real good they could do for all mankind! In many cases - such as most involving ESP, they could become the most powerful human being on Earth quite quickly. For that matter, they could take complete control of all mankind in short order! So why would they want to waste time trying to win the $1 million? The purpose of the Challenge is educational. It is aimed at demonstrating that most (probably all) of these flim flammers are just that, and thereby educate and instruct the masses; it calls attention to the more meaningful and direct good work of the JREF - aimed at teaching us all about the value of critical thinking, skepticism and science. It is not a public relations ploy or trick - just a valuable and dramatic tool in the arsenal of the enlightened against the dark side. You may be sure that Randi has no fear that the $1 million is in any danger of being "won." The same kind of evasion and flim flammery (like that of Sylvia Browne) is an all too common response to the Challenge. Those of you who attended TAM3 may recall Dawkins's discussion of the "paranormal'" versus the "perinormal." It is the perinormal which could actually win the challenge. This is one reason the Challenge needs to be modified. The paranormal would not even need to get involved with the Challenge for the reasons stated above.
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We listen to your specific propositions, feldesq. Perhaps in another thread?
This thread deals with the topic: "Who judges?" a test result.
Rasmus
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For the umpteenth time: There doesn't have to be any such rule.
First of all, the rules of the challenge are only part of the entire contract. There is a protocol for every test agreed to by all parties involved. If any applicant feels the need to have written down who does the judging: Make it part of the protocol:
§172.b
After each round, the JREF observer specifired in § 15.c will announce if the attempt has been a hit or miss according to §§ 118 - 129. Mr Randi and the JREF agree to pay out the total prize sum of $ 1,000,000.00 if the test concludes with 8 or more hits.
There, happy?
You say Randi should be open to criticism? I agree. It would bve nice if you could do some criticising instead of your continud whining.
Nobody judges the test, and nobody decided - just as nobody judges and decides that I get to watch the movie after paying for the ticket.
Rasmus.
feldesq
Student
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Yes, you're right. My complaint is with the thread itself.
...snip..
Darat says its Randi's Challenge, so its Randi's Challenge--he gets to decide. Yet if he has the final say, then he is open to criticism like the ones in the link in my previous post: as professional or lacking thereof as it may be.
There is no rule stipulating who has the final say.
I'm sorry if this has caused a little (sic)
There's too much of this already in the world, IMO.
You are misrepresenting what I have posted in this thread.
To summarise:
1) There is a rule that before the test is carried out both sides to the challenge have to agree on what will be a success or not:
12. EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER. This form must be accompanied by a brief, two-paragraph description of what will constitute the demonstration.
2) The Challenge is a legally binding contract between the Randi and the applicant.
3) If either side believes there has been a breach (and in this instance you are asking specifically what happens if Randi decides to breach rule 12) then the contract can be enforced by the judgment of the court that would have jurisdiction (which I presume would be a court of the State of Florida in the case of the Challenge).
All your objection boils down to is "What happens if Randi doesn't keep to his side of the agreement?", and as many, many people have explained to you what happens then is that the other party to the contract takes Randi to court for breach of contract and a judge will then decide if the terms of the Challenge have been met by the applicant and if so would then presumably order the money to be paid over as well as presumably costs against Randi.
The protection the applicant has from Randi breaching the contract is the justice system of Florida (and ultimately the USA), Randi however does not have any such protection against a claimant cheating since the "how" is not part of the Challenge that is why Randi is on record many times as saying (to paraphrase) "If they win by cheating they still win a million dollars".
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Perhaps ruach1 would prefer the following rule:
Rule 12.C.green: If the applicant clearly failed the test, despite breaking several stipulated conditions of this contract, but the observer (whose family was kidnapped by the applicant for leverage) still reports that the applicant has succeeded, Randi cannot declare the test invalid and must pay the money anyway.
Would that work for you? If not, perhaps you could suggest an alternate wording?
Rule 12.C.green: If the applicant clearly failed the test, despite breaking several stipulated conditions of this contract, but the observer (whose family was kidnapped by the applicant for leverage) still reports that the applicant has succeeded, Randi cannot declare the test invalid and must pay the money anyway.
Would that work for you? If not, perhaps you could suggest an alternate wording?
That's odd --- I can think of a million reasons to do so.
Because a million dollars would be good startup capital, and the attendant publicity for beating the Randi challenge would help establish their credentials.
ruach1
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Regrets if I misrepresented you, Darat. But I interpreted this as you saying it was Randi's challenge and that he has the final say on who passed or didn't.It is definitely Randi (and of course you have the evidence because once again it's already in the wording of the challenge itself):
It is very clear that the contract is between Randi and the applicant - this is still very much Randi's challenge - albeit administrated by the JREF.
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Look. I am not anti-Randi. Far from it. I think his work is exactly what the whole world needs in fighting and dispelling woo, fraud, unscientific quackery and all the pain and disillusionment associated with these things. Additionally, concerning the Challenge, I think Randi would like to see someone legitimately pass a test. Randi seemed excited in September '02' when Yellow Bamboo seemed to pass their test, and (I think) Mercutio has stated that Randi has stated that science and humanity might benefit with a new field of scientific inquiry a successful applicant may open up.
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Secondly, I have heard the legal arguments here. I understand well that if an applicant who (hypothetically speaking) was declared successful by the test-givers but overuled by Randi can sue for breach of contract. I understand this, and thank those for taking the time to write them out.
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My point (and I will write this for the final time because this bloody heap of ooze that used to be a horse is now starting to fester) is that paranormalists of a higher profile nature may not be applying because they think that Randi holds all the trump cards.
One reason why is because there is no stipulation on who has the final say of success if an applicant has passed a test: the (supposedly) impartial test-givers or Randi. High profile paranormalists who have been in the business for a while may see this in the rules and conclude that Randi can successfully manufacture very good sounding rationale (when can't he?) to show how an applicant failed a test though the test-givers, who haven't been in the business as long as Randi, showed that test-taker to have passed. To them, it may seem as if Randi (someone who is admittedly hostile to paranormalists)has too much leverage in the test, and therefore, do not apply for higher (benefit to humanity) or lower (selfishness and greed) purposes.
Yes, I understand that people responding to this thread have said that if Randi overules the test-givers, then this would be breach of contract. However, there is no rule saying WHO JUDGES final success or failure and that Randi can't overule the test-givers. Thus there there would be no breach of contract and no evidentiary grounds for litigation for the unlikely successful applicant--if it were the highly unlikely case that Randi were to overule the test-givers.
So, if you will, step out of JREF mode for an instant. If you're a higher profile psychic, why get into a challenge:
When you think the other side holds all the cards?
When you think you probably won't or can't win?
When you will probably lose your reputation as a psychic and thus lose your income?
I just believe that if there were a rule saying that the test-givers decide if a claimant passed, then there might possibly be more higher profile psychics getting in touch with Randi for the benefit of whomever. And even if a claimant passed and Randi wasn't too certain of the test, Randi could always attend the formal test, n'est pas?
That's wrong. There is a rule stating that final success or failure will be "self-evident," and there are therefore no judges to make the call.
As has been pointed out multiple times in this very thread, this is simply wrong.
Because there are a million bucks in it if you do, plus all the free publicity your little heart could desire.
If you think that, you're misinformed.
Well, that's the real rub, isn't it? You can't or won't win, not because the test is rigged, but because you're a fraud and you know it.
Rasmus
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Bull****.
These high-profile-paranormalists are, in a word, liars. They can't do squat and they know it. That is the reason why they will not have their alleged abilities tested under scientific conditions.
Bull****.
Nobody get's a "final say" because the rules clearly state that the results have to be self-evident.
Bull**** again, but fele free to finally provide an example where this might be the case.
To them it will only seem as if they don't stand a friggin snowball's chance in hell to cheat like they always do.
Nobody judges final success. that has been explained to you severa ltimes now.
Bull****.
The rules and protocpols I have seen so fart have bee nvery clear on what did and did not constitute success. And unless they explicfitely state that Randi or anyone else gets a final say regardless of the actiual test results then - guess what - nobody does get a final say.
They will not get into the challenge because they are frauds and liars, and because they know it. They know that their techniques are cheap and will not withstand even the smallest levels of scrutiny.
Two out of three ain't all that bad, eh?
Bull****.
Why would a fraud and liar set out to be shown as a fraud and liar?
Why should anyone under the sun be "not too certain" of a test that produces self-evident results?
Rasmus.
Randi does hold all the trump cards: there can be no cheating, and the paranormalists of a higher profile will stay away exactly for that reason.
How should that rule sound, ruach1?
Speaking of beating that dead horse, but once again, I will ask the same question I have posed all along. This time I will make it nice and big and bold.
Please provide an example (hypothetical or otherwise) where a SUCCESS is clearly defined, a FAILURE is clearly defined, the PROTOCOLS are mutually AGREED upon, yet the outcome is still in doubt.
You continue to mention a situation that, by the nature of the Challenge and its rules, cannot happen. The recourse of the claimant should Randi not uphold his end of the bargain has been repeatedly shown, but you continue to ask a question that has been answered. The outcome of the test will be self-evident. Randi will not agree to a protocol where the results are not self-evident. If you can think of such a situation, please answer the once again repeated question above.
I await you dodging of my question.
Santa
I shall recommend it for all local establishments. I cannot believe all you can find with just a simple google search.
Santa
P.S. Do you think Rauch1 is actually going to answer my question.
Does dodging count as answering? No?
Why then do you keep suggesting then somehow the final judgment is up to Randi? That is simply not the case. As people have explained one the rules show this isn't the case and secondly if Randi tried to back out of the Challenge contract it would be a breach of contract so the matter becomes a legal matter decided by the courts.
Research the Sylvia Brown incidence and you will find the evidence that contradicts this.
Randi on TV and the commentaries showed how he would not be responsible for the judging of any challenge she actually agreed to undertake. Indeed he even waived the preliminary test, even agreed to allow the money to be placed in escrow with Larry King, yet still she hasn't taken the challenge.
The reason the high profile ones tend not to take the challenge (even when they have said they would) is that they know they can't win it and they know that even in their world that could effect their livelihood (saying that Popoff comes to mind
).