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Who is Behind 9/11 and Why? (Chomsky)

You're colourblind, right? :boggled:

Here maybe this close up will help.

other.jpg


So we have "Other" being the military's biggest expenditure, right behind construction, unclear weapons, research and development and WAR. Notice how the expenditures for personnel and their weapons and ammo are pretty much constant, but boy have we been spending some serious bank on unclear weapons, research, war and "other", none of which can be verified thanks to national security; no room for fraud here!

This chart also exposes the lie that the US spent more on death and destruction during the cold war.
 
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Here maybe this close up will help.

[qimg]http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/other.jpg[/qimg]

So we have "Other" being the military's biggest expenditure, right behind construction, unclear weapons, research and development and WAR. Notice how the expenditures for personnel and their weapons and ammo are pretty much constant, but boy have we been spending some serious bank on unclear weapons, research, war and "other", none of which can be verified thanks to national security; no room for fraud here!

This chart also exposes the lie that the US spent more on death and destruction during the cold war.

You are still reading the graph incorrectly. The only thing that chart shows in your inability to read graphs properly.
 
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I haven't read a lot about Noam Chomsky in this Chomsky thread. By way of brief review, Chomsky rejects the 9/11 controlled demolition theory. As a hard-core left-wing anarchist, you can't get much more anti-US foreign policy than Chomsky. I have heard him say that enormous energy is wasted on the left dealing with 9/11 Truth instead of putting that energy into taking a stand against the military-industrial complex. He probably said it on the videos on post #1 here as well.

Yankee, if a guy had a bad marriage to a woman with a big life insurance policy, and she died in a car accident, the guy would make a lot of money. As a matter of course, the coroner's office looks for evidence of foul play, but absent that, most unhappily married guys whose wives die are not murderers.

Is there evidence there for an "inside job" on 9/11? I haven't found it. Does Chomsky believe the US took full advantage of this attack to start wars, curtail civil liberties, etc? Absolutely. Absent evidence of foul play (such as suspicious detonation devices found in the debris), the evidence points to natural collapse. Even the America-hating anarchist commie pinko Chomsky agrees with that. As do nationalistic conservative patriotic right-wingers. And political moderates. And apolitical scientists. Sorry. You have to come up with concrete evidence, not just the fact that the neocons benefited from 9/11!!!

Chomsky is about as controlled of a "left wing anarchist" as you can get. 9/11 is the BEST way to confront the military industrial complex.
 
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You are still reading the graph incorrectly.

I know that the phrase is overused, but I am literally laughing out loud. He thinks that the smallest area of the graph is the biggest expenditure category, because they chose to place that small category on the top of the graph? Wow.

Also - "unclear weapons" sums up most of the military budget in my eyes.
 
I know that the phrase is overused, but I am literally laughing out loud. He thinks that the smallest area of the graph is the biggest expenditure category, because they chose to place that small category on the top of the graph? Wow.

Also - "unclear weapons" sums up most of the military budget in my eyes.

I think I see why truthers shun the msm. Its just too darn confusing for them to follow.
 
I know that the phrase is overused, but I am literally laughing out loud. He thinks that the smallest area of the graph is the biggest expenditure category, because they chose to place that small category on the top of the graph? Wow.

Also - "unclear weapons" sums up most of the military budget in my eyes.

To be fair, it appears that someone could use a lesson in data visualization and representation. While it is easy enough to understand the graph with a little thought, it is easy enough to misinterpret it, as well.
 
I know that the phrase is overused, but I am literally laughing out loud. He thinks that the smallest area of the graph is the biggest expenditure category, because they chose to place that small category on the top of the graph? Wow.

Also - "unclear weapons" sums up most of the military budget in my eyes.

Thanks for the correction, I misspoke - whatever other is, it was not the biggest expenditure. You guys keep me honest, I like that about you.

But where you were keen to correct me with my interpretation of a chart which was offered as proof spending as actually increased since 9/11, you missed the point of the chart, which was in response to post 105 who claimed spending has decreased since Reagan.

The problem is the DoD has failed numerous audits, regularly misplacing trillions, and since they can always hide behind "National Security", they have no accountability - the perfect climate for fraud. So getting back on topic, the chart was offered to prove spending has increased since Reagan:

So the story told in the first chart seems basically correct. Defense spending fell during detente in the 1970s, rose during Reagan’s tenure, fell during the 1990s peace and has grown since the war on terrorism started to a level surpassing that of the Reagan years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/28/defense-spending-in-the-u-s-in-four-charts/

Thanks again for correcting my chart-reading skills, I hate it when I make mistakes and I appreciate being told when I do so I can correct the record and move on.
 
Thanks for the correction, I misspoke - whatever other is, it was not the biggest expenditure. You guys keep me honest, I like that about you.

But where you were keen to correct me with my interpretation of a chart which was offered as proof spending as actually increased since 9/11, you missed the point of the chart, which was in response to post 105 who claimed spending has decreased since Reagan.

The problem is the DoD has failed numerous audits, regularly misplacing trillions, and since they can always hide behind "National Security", they have no accountability - the perfect climate for fraud. So getting back on topic, the chart was offered to prove spending has increased since Reagan:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...8/defense-spending-in-the-u-s-in-four-charts/

Thanks again for correcting my chart-reading skills, I hate it when I make mistakes and I appreciate being told when I do so I can correct the record and move on.

You rant about the government, then make up lies about 911. Wow, you are exactly like the government in your fantasy world of missiles and where you laugh at people murdered on 911. Crocodile tears? And you call JREF posters what? Too afraid to say what you think?

What did you call JREF posters? Yet here you are getting your attention, spreading lies, and you can't read charts. Home schooled? Why do you make up fantasy to go along with your hate?
 
Thanks for the correction, I misspoke - whatever other is, it was not the biggest expenditure. You guys keep me honest, I like that about you.

But where you were keen to correct me with my interpretation of a chart which was offered as proof spending as actually increased since 9/11, you missed the point of the chart, which was in response to post 105 who claimed spending has decreased since Reagan.

You are mis-characterizing that post. It did not say that spending has decreased since Reagan. You also seemed to change the subject from "weapons as America's hottest export" to "spending on guns for our own military." Our weapons are not exports.



Your understanding of economics is shockingly poor. The major US export is capital, not guns; arms sales add up to a few percent of all US overseas exports (well under 5%) whereas consumer exports are massively more important, and military spending has been down below 5% since the Cold War (in the Vietnam era it barely reached 10%, versus 37% in WWII). Most US military spending goes on personnel, construction, operating expenses and housing; with procurement coming to less than a quarter of all spending in the latest figures.

If the US defense industry was really so export-oriented then they'd make cheaper weapons that would actually have a market. Less than 2000 Abrams tanks have been sold overseas (more than half of which went to Egypt) since the M1 became operational, whereas the US Army and Marine Corps has received nearly 9,000 since 1980. Some of the export sales were hand-me-downs as the M1 has gone through several models.

Same with aircraft and other toys; they're all so expensive, and so strategically important, that they are sold to trusted strategic allies while other nations buy from Russia or Europe. Production runs are pathetic in most cases.

There ultimately isn't much to choose between the US and Russia in terms of arms sales, the sole difference is Russian models are a bit cheaper and are operated by a wider range of countries. Moreover there was a glut of Soviet models available after 1989-1991 which have found their way across the globe; which is why Iran bought 104 T-72s from Poland while producing another 422 itself under license from Russia. An awful lot of ex-NATO hardware has spread across the globe, too.

If the military-industrial complex really wanted to recapture the glory days of the Cold War and the accompanying profits, then they'd have engineered tension with China, in order to justify serious spending on really substantial amounts of hardware. GWOT just doesn't cut it by comparison to the halcyon days of the Reagan build-up, I'm afraid.


Thanks again for correcting my chart-reading skills, I hate it when I make mistakes and I appreciate being told when I do so I can correct the record and move on.
No worries.

Going back to your chart, we are spending (in constant dollars) about double what we spent 50 years ago, (and 50% more than during the Reagan era). Our population during that time has basically doubled, so the per-capita spend is probably the same. From 2000-2012, the percent spent on operations (war) increased while we had wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
Thanks for the correction, I misspoke - whatever other is, it was not the biggest expenditure. You guys keep me honest, I like that about you.

But where you were keen to correct me with my interpretation of a chart which was offered as proof spending as actually increased since 9/11, you missed the point of the chart, which was in response to post 105 who claimed spending has decreased since Reagan.

The problem is the DoD has failed numerous audits, regularly misplacing trillions, and since they can always hide behind "National Security", they have no accountability - the perfect climate for fraud. So getting back on topic, the chart was offered to prove spending has increased since Reagan:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/28/defense-spending-in-the-u-s-in-four-charts/

Thanks again for correcting my chart-reading skills, I hate it when I make mistakes and I appreciate being told when I do so I can correct the record and move on.
No, no, wheel it back. I want to know what unclear weapons are. What is unclear about them? Is it unclear that they are weapons? Or that they have unclear effects? Or are they are only deployed on foggy nights rendering them unclear? What?
 
The other thing you're not getting is how even the biggest defense contractors are relatively small compared to other major corporations. Lockheed Martin had revenues of $46 billion in 2011, but General Motors had revenues of $150 billion. GM sold its defense division to General Dynamics in 2000, getting out of the armored vehicles business. Ford has revenues of $136 billion. Boeing sold $31 billion of defense procurement in 2011, but had overall revenues of $81 billion, since it is after all one of the largest manufacturers of civilian airliners. Apple and Microsoft both trounce Lockheed Martin for sales. Defense firms also cannot guarantee that their products are going to get ordered by the country with the biggest defense budget worldwide.

What is your point here? You're comparing a hundred+ contractors for public expenditures to a consumer market. And in particular ones dominated by monopolies or oligopolies, such as the big three auto makers, or Microsoft or Apple. :boggled:
 
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in response to post 105 who claimed spending has decreased since Reagan.

No, that wasn't what was claimed. Defense spending as a proportion of GDP has decreased since Reagan. The US economy has grown since 1980, after all, even with the recessions of recent years, so spending can increase in absolute terms but decrease proportionate to the rest of the economy.

This reduces the clout of the defense sector and makes it less likely that anyone within government would think it's a great idea to raise profits for a handful of firms.

Simple cost-benefit analysis argues against your bovine faeces claim that 9/11 was an inside job in order to increase defense contractor profits. The benefits such as they were are temporary and the potential costs enormous - actual costs in terms of increasing the deficit were bad enough.
 
What is your point here? You're comparing a hundred+ contractors for public expenditures to a consumer market. And in particular ones dominated by monopolies or oligopolies, such as the big three auto makers, or Microsoft or Apple. :boggled:

Try following the thread. yankee451 rather naively claimed that increased profits for defense contractors selling arms in a destabilised world equated to a motive for an inside job on 9/11.

This is a ridiculous argument for all kinds of reasons, but the main reason why is economic.

The defense sector involved in actual weapons sales cannot make any more money than is appropriated for procurement in the US federal budget plus whatever it can sell worldwide.

Defense spending is down below 5% of GDP in the US, and procurement is about a quarter of that. This means that all defense contractors who sell weapons put together add up to maybe 1-2% of the US economy, maximum. The global arms trade is worth significantly less than whatever these firms can win by way of contracts from the US government, and the US is only ahead in the league tables because its products are, well, pretty damn expensive, not because it makes loads of actual item sales.

There are some very big defense firms in the US, but they are nowhere near the biggest businesses in the US economy. Mentioning that simply helps everyone get a handle on the real size of the defense sector. The other way of looking at this is to point out that the overwhelming majority of the US economy makes its money from civilian products and sales, not defense.

A number of US oil companies have greater revenues than even the big manufacturing firms I mentioned. Exxon is the #1 or #2 in the world with $452-482 billion in revenue; Chevron is about #8-10 worldwide with $211-245 billion; there are other big non-US oil companies in the top ten as well, and Royal Dutch Shell is the current #1 on the Fortune 500. There isn't in fact a single exclusive defense corporation in the top 60 worldwide. Boeing, whose money is only partially made by defense sales, is at #123 in the Fortune 500 of world corporations, while Lockheed Martin, which is currently the largest defense contractor in the world, is at #211.
 
Try following the thread. yankee451 rather naively claimed that increased profits for defense contractors selling arms in a destabilised world equated to a motive for an inside job on 9/11.

This is a ridiculous argument for all kinds of reasons, but the main reason why is economic.

No, the main reason why is because it's not the main motive.


The defense sector involved in actual weapons sales cannot make any more money than is appropriated for procurement in the US federal budget plus whatever it can sell worldwide.

Utterly untrue, as the trillions in unaccounted spending attest to, as well as the simple fact that what is spent usually goes beyond what is allocated. Hence, deficits.


There are some very big defense firms in the US, but they are nowhere near the biggest businesses in the US economy...

A number of US oil companies have greater revenues than even the big manufacturing firms I mentioned. Exxon is the #1 or #2 in the world with $452-482 billion in revenue; Chevron is about #8-10 worldwide with $211-245 billion; there are other big non-US oil companies in the top ten as well, and Royal Dutch Shell is the current #1 on the Fortune 500. There isn't in fact a single exclusive defense corporation in the top 60 worldwide. Boeing, whose money is only partially made by defense sales, is at #123 in the Fortune 500 of world corporations, while Lockheed Martin, which is currently the largest defense contractor in the world, is at #211.


And as I said, this is irrelevant. You're comparing apples and oranges.

In 2010, US defense spending was approximately $2 billion/day. And that's just what has been accounted for.
 
Try following the thread. yankee451 rather naively claimed that increased profits for defense contractors selling arms in a destabilised world equated to a motive for an inside job on 9/11.

This is a ridiculous argument for all kinds of reasons, but the main reason why is economic.

The defense sector involved in actual weapons sales cannot make any more money than is appropriated for procurement in the US federal budget plus whatever it can sell worldwide.

Defense spending is down below 5% of GDP in the US, and procurement is about a quarter of that. This means that all defense contractors who sell weapons put together add up to maybe 1-2% of the US economy, maximum. The global arms trade is worth significantly less than whatever these firms can win by way of contracts from the US government, and the US is only ahead in the league tables because its products are, well, pretty damn expensive, not because it makes loads of actual item sales.

There are some very big defense firms in the US, but they are nowhere near the biggest businesses in the US economy. Mentioning that simply helps everyone get a handle on the real size of the defense sector. The other way of looking at this is to point out that the overwhelming majority of the US economy makes its money from civilian products and sales, not defense.

A number of US oil companies have greater revenues than even the big manufacturing firms I mentioned. Exxon is the #1 or #2 in the world with $452-482 billion in revenue; Chevron is about #8-10 worldwide with $211-245 billion; there are other big non-US oil companies in the top ten as well, and Royal Dutch Shell is the current #1 on the Fortune 500. There isn't in fact a single exclusive defense corporation in the top 60 worldwide. Boeing, whose money is only partially made by defense sales, is at #123 in the Fortune 500 of world corporations, while Lockheed Martin, which is currently the largest defense contractor in the world, is at #211.

GE is #22 worldwide and is a significant defense contractor, however their federal contracts (2011) was just over $3 billion total out of $147 billion and they rank 21 on the federal list, so your overall point still stands.
 
No, the main reason why is because it's not the main motive.

Utterly untrue, as the trillions in unaccounted spending attest to, as well as the simple fact that what is spent usually goes beyond what is allocated. Hence, deficits.

That hoary old nonsense? Look, failing to properly account down to the last penny for how money is spent within the defense budget is a different beast to how much is appropriated for the defense budget in the first place.

It's also a different beast to the issue of what the defense budget consists of. There are just shy of 1.5 million personnel in the US armed forces, all of whom have to be paid. You cannot cut their salaries in order to fund extra weapons. Their payscales are pretty widely known. So the aggregate figures about how much for personnel and how much for procurement are going to be accurate. What the hoary old nonsense about 'unaccounted' trillions was really about was integrating disparate financial management systems covering the different categories.

It also doesn't allow for the possibility of 'hidden' defense procurements of major armaments - which is what is being discussed - since the defense contractors are inevitably pretty open about the orders they receive, and have to publish accounts. Boeing's books are probably better than the Pentagon's books because Boeing is a publicly traded corporation. The Pentagon is not.

And as I said, this is irrelevant. You're comparing apples and oranges.

In 2010, US defense spending was approximately $2 billion/day. And that's just what has been accounted for.

No, the federal government can account for what payments it needs to make to the individual departments including the Pentagon. If it could not, then the Federal Reserve and Treasury would be utterly unable to manage government finance. You are mixing up internal financial management within the Pentagon with fiscal policy relating to the entire US budget.

That the Pentagon has been soaking up large sums of money is not news. Nor is it news that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan bloated that overall number in the 2000s. Nor is it news that increased defense spending has added to the deficit. One of the articles linked earlier estimated that 20% of the deficit increase could be ascribed to those wars. The article also featured a graph showing the extraordinary above-budget expenses incurred by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It really doesn't surprise me that Truthers are functional morons when it comes to understanding the workings of modern government, business and the military, but really, have you tried counting how many troops have been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan from 2001 to the present? Ever followed the actual course of operations at all?

Even with the incredibly high cost of deploying US troops with their very hi-tech equipment and logistic support, there are still limits in how much it's going to cost as a share of GDP.

Moreover, we have the perfectly good yardstick of Vietnam - defense spending to fund Vietnam (while also funding commitments to NATO etc) came close to 10% of GDP in the late 1960s. Because taxes were not raised in an era when the dollar was still convertible to gold (the Bretton Woods system), this caused a variety of inflationary pressures that led to the end of Bretton Woods and the onset of 70s stagflation (in tandem with the '73 oil shock).

The US fielded 500,000 men in Vietnam and lost over 8,000 aircraft and helicopters - 5000 US Army helicopters alone were shot down or crashed. Huge, huge costs, measured by the standards of the era. That's why US defense spending reached a significantly higher proportion of GDP.

US forces in Iraq never broke the 200,000 barrier; equipment losses were a fraction of the losses in Vietnam - 75 helicopters were destroyed according to one source I've seen, versus 5,000 helicopters destroyed in Vietnam (and compared with 45,000 aircraft lost in WWII - when defense spending approached 40% of GDP).

Sure, the US has spent a lot on the war of terror, but not nearly as much, proportionately, as was spent on previous wars. At best the increased defense spending did not help much when the credit crunch hit in 2007-2008, but the fundamental causes of the credit crunch lay elsewhere. The amount of money that was sunk into bad commercial loans was enormous. Indeed, the Bush tax cuts had a bigger effect on the deficit than the extraordinary costs of the war on terror.
 
Why, do you think it's possible for an aluminum jet to slice through dozens of my wood stoves?
]

That's where your problem lies.

It's not an 'aluminium jet'
its a mass moving at speed.
Once you can see that you will see just how untenable your current position is
 
That's where your problem lies.

It's not an 'aluminium jet'
its a mass moving at speed.
Once you can see that you will see just how untenable your current position is

I often suspect that water jet cutters would be incomprehensible machines of true magic in the eyes of your average truther.
 

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