White House Outs CIA Agent
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Professor Frink
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If the Justice Department looks into this, will Novak be required to tell them who his sources are? He does know who told him about it, and he is confident that what he printed was true, which means it wasn't just some lame tip. At what point does he have to tell what he knows - doesn't he at some point become accessory to a crime (if he hasn't already committed a crime himself?)
This question is aside from the obvious question of what the he!! was he thinking to print the name like that. Why didn't he instead report that some administration officials revealed the name to him but he won't print it, and call for an investigation.
I hope big news comes of this. This is even bigger than the "16 words" because, if it is true, it is a demonstration of pure malice and cruelty on the part of the Bush administration. I saw that Bush admin officials have promised to cooperate. Goody! They're publicly saying they'll cooperate with a federal investigation! They're outstanding the way they cooperate! "I promise to cooperate with the Justice Department, because that's the kind of guy I am! Not like those people who won't cooperate!"
Frink
This question is aside from the obvious question of what the he!! was he thinking to print the name like that. Why didn't he instead report that some administration officials revealed the name to him but he won't print it, and call for an investigation.
I hope big news comes of this. This is even bigger than the "16 words" because, if it is true, it is a demonstration of pure malice and cruelty on the part of the Bush administration. I saw that Bush admin officials have promised to cooperate. Goody! They're publicly saying they'll cooperate with a federal investigation! They're outstanding the way they cooperate! "I promise to cooperate with the Justice Department, because that's the kind of guy I am! Not like those people who won't cooperate!"
Frink
Professor Frink
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Let me be more clear about it - I think that Novak is guilty of a crime, screw journalistic integrity and protecting your sources and "just printing the facts."
Say that two people rob a bank and steal 1000 dollars. Then they go to Novak, and say "here, this money was stolen, take it." If Novak takes the money, and doesn't report who gave it to him, he just spends it, then he is guilty of crimes, not only knowingly receiving stolen goods but protecting the identities of the criminals. (Okay I'm no lawyer, but there is a lot wrong with this scenario, and it is criminal)
In this case he received illegal "goods" (information) and "spent" it (by printing the name) and he is saying "hey, that's good journalism!"
He's guilty of a crime, he revealed to the public the name of an undercover CIA agent. He did it, and he is just as guilty as the people who gave him the name in the first place. Not only did he not try to stop a crime in progress by notifying authorities about his sources, but he deliberately helped the crime succeed by printing the name. Hang 'im.
Frink
Say that two people rob a bank and steal 1000 dollars. Then they go to Novak, and say "here, this money was stolen, take it." If Novak takes the money, and doesn't report who gave it to him, he just spends it, then he is guilty of crimes, not only knowingly receiving stolen goods but protecting the identities of the criminals. (Okay I'm no lawyer, but there is a lot wrong with this scenario, and it is criminal)
In this case he received illegal "goods" (information) and "spent" it (by printing the name) and he is saying "hey, that's good journalism!"
He's guilty of a crime, he revealed to the public the name of an undercover CIA agent. He did it, and he is just as guilty as the people who gave him the name in the first place. Not only did he not try to stop a crime in progress by notifying authorities about his sources, but he deliberately helped the crime succeed by printing the name. Hang 'im.
Frink
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
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I've met Mr. Novak, and he is even nastier in person than he is on tv. That he would be involved in outing a CIA agent because of some kind of political vendetta does not surprise me.
I do have small hope that his informant did not emanate from the White House,...but I don't harbor illusions. People in power in this city play a mighty nasty version of hardball. But let's not kid ourselves,...both sides play the game really well.
I think the best, most recent example of bald faced political hardball was during the Florida recount. The Democrat and Republican political big guns were on tv 3 times a day. The worst of it was when the Republicans burst into the Broward County courthouse to physically disrupt the recount, and when the Dems tried to exclude absentee ballots arriving from mostly military locations.
I am saddened when partisan politics hurt this country. This outting of a CIA operative appears to be one such instance. I hope whomever did this thing is caught.
The Repubs are guilty of hounding Mr. Clinton with a 50 million $ investigation that turned up an Oval office BJ...someone should have been jailed for that fiasco. Then Clinton staffers are caught with FBI files on Republican opponents......the beat goes on.
The White House is calling charges that they leaked this info "ridiculous". So, SG, before you...or I...or anyone else starts going off half cocked I'd suggest that we wait to see the evidence.
The main thing that seperates your view from mine is that I'm willing to give GWB the benefit of the doubt, you are not. However you and others in the past have been willing to give Osama, and Saddam the benefit of the doubt by your insistence on seeing "the evidence". Why is that?
I doubt any of us will see any evidence unless Novak rolls over on his sources,...and Novak would never be trusted to hear leaks again if he did,...since I doubt he will comit professional suicide, my guess is that we'll never know.
I am at least as pissed off about this as you are SG. Looky! We have something in common!
-z
I do have small hope that his informant did not emanate from the White House,...but I don't harbor illusions. People in power in this city play a mighty nasty version of hardball. But let's not kid ourselves,...both sides play the game really well.
I think the best, most recent example of bald faced political hardball was during the Florida recount. The Democrat and Republican political big guns were on tv 3 times a day. The worst of it was when the Republicans burst into the Broward County courthouse to physically disrupt the recount, and when the Dems tried to exclude absentee ballots arriving from mostly military locations.
I am saddened when partisan politics hurt this country. This outting of a CIA operative appears to be one such instance. I hope whomever did this thing is caught.
The Repubs are guilty of hounding Mr. Clinton with a 50 million $ investigation that turned up an Oval office BJ...someone should have been jailed for that fiasco. Then Clinton staffers are caught with FBI files on Republican opponents......the beat goes on.
The White House is calling charges that they leaked this info "ridiculous". So, SG, before you...or I...or anyone else starts going off half cocked I'd suggest that we wait to see the evidence.
The main thing that seperates your view from mine is that I'm willing to give GWB the benefit of the doubt, you are not. However you and others in the past have been willing to give Osama, and Saddam the benefit of the doubt by your insistence on seeing "the evidence". Why is that?
I doubt any of us will see any evidence unless Novak rolls over on his sources,...and Novak would never be trusted to hear leaks again if he did,...since I doubt he will comit professional suicide, my guess is that we'll never know.
I am at least as pissed off about this as you are SG. Looky! We have something in common!
-z
rik,
I never said GWB was involved. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I want whoever did it (and I mentioned even low-level patsies) held accountable. It is obviously in GWB's interests now to out them or else the implication will be that he was involved.
Novak said "two senior administration officials". He, as nasty a guy as he is, is considered credible. That is evidence.
I've never given Osama the "BOD", there was ample evidence there. Saddam, a criminal of the highest order, and our action was a decade overdue. That is a different issue from whether there's evidence to support the administration's claims.
The only distinction with the examples of hardball unacceptable "politics" you cited, and this affair, is that this is a breach of national security, and puts someone's life in jeopardy.
As always, we agree on much more than we differ.
I never said GWB was involved. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I want whoever did it (and I mentioned even low-level patsies) held accountable. It is obviously in GWB's interests now to out them or else the implication will be that he was involved.
Novak said "two senior administration officials". He, as nasty a guy as he is, is considered credible. That is evidence.
I've never given Osama the "BOD", there was ample evidence there. Saddam, a criminal of the highest order, and our action was a decade overdue. That is a different issue from whether there's evidence to support the administration's claims.
The only distinction with the examples of hardball unacceptable "politics" you cited, and this affair, is that this is a breach of national security, and puts someone's life in jeopardy.
As always, we agree on much more than we differ.
aerocontrols
Illuminator
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It certainly seems that this is as bad as it looks. Whoever did this needs to be stomped on, hard.
If Bush is responsible, then he needs to be impeached. If the Justice Department doesn't get to the bottom of this fairly quickly (6 weeks, max) and produce the guilty parties, then Congress needs to investigate. The first thing that should come to light is the names of the reporters who were allegedly called and whose phone records might match them on the day(s) in question. (The administration didn't take long finding out that Wesley Clark hadn't called Karl Rove as was alleged he claimed.)
The only way that her 'outing' is not a crime by somebody is if her status as CIA personel is not classified. If I were Novak, this would be my defense. It's not a crime for him to say, for instance, that George Tenet works for the CIA. If he doesn't know her status is a secret (and there's nothing in the original article indicating that he did) then why would he refrain from naming her? If Novak's facts are true, then his sources sold this story to him on a nepotism angle. (Wilson only went to Niger because his connected wife arranged for it)
In other words, Novak's defense goes like this:
MattJ
If Bush is responsible, then he needs to be impeached. If the Justice Department doesn't get to the bottom of this fairly quickly (6 weeks, max) and produce the guilty parties, then Congress needs to investigate. The first thing that should come to light is the names of the reporters who were allegedly called and whose phone records might match them on the day(s) in question. (The administration didn't take long finding out that Wesley Clark hadn't called Karl Rove as was alleged he claimed.)
The only way that her 'outing' is not a crime by somebody is if her status as CIA personel is not classified. If I were Novak, this would be my defense. It's not a crime for him to say, for instance, that George Tenet works for the CIA. If he doesn't know her status is a secret (and there's nothing in the original article indicating that he did) then why would he refrain from naming her? If Novak's facts are true, then his sources sold this story to him on a nepotism angle. (Wilson only went to Niger because his connected wife arranged for it)
In other words, Novak's defense goes like this:
MattJ
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
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How terribly, criminally irresponsible!
No matter how many political types she may have pissed off, her outting not only might have cost her her life...what about the lives of people who may have been seen with her in the field. Are there people who were working for US interests being whacked across Africa at this very moment?
Geez, that sucks!
-z
No matter how many political types she may have pissed off, her outting not only might have cost her her life...what about the lives of people who may have been seen with her in the field. Are there people who were working for US interests being whacked across Africa at this very moment?
Geez, that sucks!
-z
rikzilla said:
Glad to see you agree. I hope you agree that this is full-blown treason and should be followed to its source, whoever it is.
It's a no-lose situation. If Bush didn't know about it, well and good, let's find out who did and get them in front of a firing squad. If he did, he's not worthy of anyone's support anyway. But we have to know, and someone's head's got to roll.
The apologists are spinning.
The National Review Online says that it's no secret that his wife was a spy, everyone knew it. Well at least Clifford D. May knew it. Of course he knew it because another person who "formerly worked in the government". No big deal.
Gee I wonder WHERE in the government? He says not the White House. I'm guessing State Department.
The way this column writes it, there was no leak. Everyone could figure out that Wilson's wife was the spy. Nowhere is there any mention of the two senior white-house officials calling 6 different reporters. That part falls into the black hole of the passive voice.
But even more than that, they smear Wilson as a lefty, and a critic of the Bush Administration. And they impugn his credibility as an investigator.
They smear him as being "affiliated with the pro-Saudi Middle East Institute". Gee... he might be working for the enemy! Pretty sneaky for an Ambassador who's served under Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton. He's "affiliated" with the Mid-East Institute... Could it be BECAUSE he was acting ambassador in that region during Desert Shield (and negotiated the release of hundreds of American Hostages)?
They smear him as a traitor.
Then the play the old saw about none of this being reported in the ....sing with me, folks.... LIBERAL MEDIA-da doo run run run, da doo run run...
Subgenius, THAT'S why there has been no posts from the apologists. THAT'S why nobody has posted here, and why this story has broken so slowly.
The righties had nothing to say. They were waiting for the starting gun, they needed SOMETHING, ANYTHING to start smearing Wilson with.
Never mind that Wilson isn't the story, it's the leaker, Novak, Valerie Plame, et al.
Let's hear more about this traitor:
Ambassador Wilson holds the Department of Defense Distinguished Service Award, the Department of State Superior and Meritorious Honor Awards, and the American Foreign Service Association William R. Rivkin Award.
Yep, he sounds shifty to me!
Look at this article by May, in the National Review, it's line-by-line character assasination, ghost-written by Rove:
http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200309291022.asp
First, acknowlege the fact that Novak wrote the article. Okay.. mea culpa.
Then, "Who didn't know?" OH, that makes it obvious!?!? Who DIDN'T know? Oh, maybe terrorists!
Then, casually drop that May knew it all along. Not a big secret.
Then, I could have written about it, but I didn't, it was no big deal.
Then, Anyone could have guessed his wife was a spy.
Then, "Mr. Wilson has long been a bitter critic" of Bush. "Writing in such left-wing publications as THE NATION" OH NO!! HE IS A LEFTY!!! Yes, May, everyone reading the National Review KNOWS The Nation is left-wing. Of course, to the National Review, Reader's Digest is left-wing!
Then, He's AFILLIATED with a pro-Saudi think tank! (Yeah, so what? Bush is affilated with a proto-facist Justice department! )
Then, Wilson has flip-flopped on the issue of the Iraq war. That's the Republicans smear du-jour (witness Clark). They never for once suppose that folks who are anti-war now, but WERE pro-war were for it BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED the President.
Then, the unkindest cut of all, he impugns Wilson's ability to investigate Niger at all! Yes, he has no investigation ability. Hmmm... maybe his WIFE was spying while he was sipping tea!
Wo why are we listening to Wilson anyway, he's just a Bush-basher, his wife was doing all of the investigating... and MAYBE...JUST MAYBE... Wilson leaked info about no uranium from Niger that was top secret spy info from his WIFE! AHA!!!
WILSON IS THE TRAITOR!
There's the starting gun, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly.
3....
2...
1..
GO WITH IT!!!!
The National Review Online says that it's no secret that his wife was a spy, everyone knew it. Well at least Clifford D. May knew it. Of course he knew it because another person who "formerly worked in the government". No big deal.
Gee I wonder WHERE in the government? He says not the White House. I'm guessing State Department.
The way this column writes it, there was no leak. Everyone could figure out that Wilson's wife was the spy. Nowhere is there any mention of the two senior white-house officials calling 6 different reporters. That part falls into the black hole of the passive voice.
But even more than that, they smear Wilson as a lefty, and a critic of the Bush Administration. And they impugn his credibility as an investigator.
They smear him as being "affiliated with the pro-Saudi Middle East Institute". Gee... he might be working for the enemy! Pretty sneaky for an Ambassador who's served under Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton. He's "affiliated" with the Mid-East Institute... Could it be BECAUSE he was acting ambassador in that region during Desert Shield (and negotiated the release of hundreds of American Hostages)?
They smear him as a traitor.
Then the play the old saw about none of this being reported in the ....sing with me, folks.... LIBERAL MEDIA-da doo run run run, da doo run run...
Subgenius, THAT'S why there has been no posts from the apologists. THAT'S why nobody has posted here, and why this story has broken so slowly.
The righties had nothing to say. They were waiting for the starting gun, they needed SOMETHING, ANYTHING to start smearing Wilson with.
Never mind that Wilson isn't the story, it's the leaker, Novak, Valerie Plame, et al.
Let's hear more about this traitor:
Ambassador Wilson holds the Department of Defense Distinguished Service Award, the Department of State Superior and Meritorious Honor Awards, and the American Foreign Service Association William R. Rivkin Award.
Yep, he sounds shifty to me!
Look at this article by May, in the National Review, it's line-by-line character assasination, ghost-written by Rove:
http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200309291022.asp
First, acknowlege the fact that Novak wrote the article. Okay.. mea culpa.
Then, "Who didn't know?" OH, that makes it obvious!?!? Who DIDN'T know? Oh, maybe terrorists!
Then, casually drop that May knew it all along. Not a big secret.
Then, I could have written about it, but I didn't, it was no big deal.
Then, Anyone could have guessed his wife was a spy.
Then, "Mr. Wilson has long been a bitter critic" of Bush. "Writing in such left-wing publications as THE NATION" OH NO!! HE IS A LEFTY!!! Yes, May, everyone reading the National Review KNOWS The Nation is left-wing. Of course, to the National Review, Reader's Digest is left-wing!
Then, He's AFILLIATED with a pro-Saudi think tank! (Yeah, so what? Bush is affilated with a proto-facist Justice department! )
Then, Wilson has flip-flopped on the issue of the Iraq war. That's the Republicans smear du-jour (witness Clark). They never for once suppose that folks who are anti-war now, but WERE pro-war were for it BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED the President.
Then, the unkindest cut of all, he impugns Wilson's ability to investigate Niger at all! Yes, he has no investigation ability. Hmmm... maybe his WIFE was spying while he was sipping tea!
Wo why are we listening to Wilson anyway, he's just a Bush-basher, his wife was doing all of the investigating... and MAYBE...JUST MAYBE... Wilson leaked info about no uranium from Niger that was top secret spy info from his WIFE! AHA!!!
WILSON IS THE TRAITOR!
There's the starting gun, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly.
3....
2...
1..
GO WITH IT!!!!
Nie Trink Wasser
Graduate Poster
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- Apr 15, 2002
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- 1,317
Silicon said:
that's the lefty tactic.
keep pretending that it's a rightwing conspiracy to make Wilson look bad by releasing secrets about his wife.
you're too emotional to be rational.
very liberal of you.
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
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Are we still subscribing to the 48 hour rule??
If there is actionable evidence against Mr. Rove, etc.. we should hear about it soon. If not, then this is all mental masturbation.
If ANY PERSON, including the President, knowingly compromised national security as has been speculated upon,...they should be brought up on charges, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Period.
Alot of people are throwing around alot of assumptions. Assumptions are not facts. If the facts show that Karl Rove did this thing he should be sent to jail. However, facts will have to be gathered and that will take time. This is an incident that fairly screams INVESTIGATE ME!
-z
If there is actionable evidence against Mr. Rove, etc.. we should hear about it soon. If not, then this is all mental masturbation.
If ANY PERSON, including the President, knowingly compromised national security as has been speculated upon,...they should be brought up on charges, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Period.
Alot of people are throwing around alot of assumptions. Assumptions are not facts. If the facts show that Karl Rove did this thing he should be sent to jail. However, facts will have to be gathered and that will take time. This is an incident that fairly screams INVESTIGATE ME!
-z
I've seen the spin that it was no secret that she was a spy.
A problem with this is why did Novak reveal it as if it was a secret by citing two senior administration officials who leaked it to him, and who he feels the need to protect by journalistic privilege, if it was no secret?
Obviously nothing is a secret to everyone. Things are secret to some and not others. Doesn't get around the law against revealing "secrets."
Rove? Rummy? I have no idea who it was, and don't care.
I don't care if it was some 5th class clerk in a cubicle somewhere. Bush is the one who needs to show that his administration doesn't leak, and I think he will. He was always reputed to be someone who hated this kind of thing.
A problem with this is why did Novak reveal it as if it was a secret by citing two senior administration officials who leaked it to him, and who he feels the need to protect by journalistic privilege, if it was no secret?
Obviously nothing is a secret to everyone. Things are secret to some and not others. Doesn't get around the law against revealing "secrets."
Rove? Rummy? I have no idea who it was, and don't care.
I don't care if it was some 5th class clerk in a cubicle somewhere. Bush is the one who needs to show that his administration doesn't leak, and I think he will. He was always reputed to be someone who hated this kind of thing.
Charlie Monoxide
Wag
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In this democracy it doesn't pay to criticize the prez.
Charlie (saluting the Patriot Act) Monoxide
Charlie (saluting the Patriot Act) Monoxide
Nie Trink Wasser
Graduate Poster
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subgenius said:
you have to respect my opinion of you, here it is :
Youre a conspiracy spinist and an avid fan of the church of the subgenius.
Nothing you say holds any substance to me at all. Even the title of this thread is so revoltingly irresponsible that I can't believe this forum "of skeptics" even harbors it.
sadly, it does.
You're just another glob of text that I ignore, yet a persistent irritation to anything rational.
but that sjust my opinion.
Why was there no screaming about this in July ?
Why is Wilson using the press to protest about a security problem involving his wife ? Fairly dangerous to her isnt it ?
Why is the quote that Wilson can find no connection between the white house and this being ignored ?
That was what stunned me. FBI files circulating around the white house got almost no press, and a dirty dress occupied us all for, oh, two years...rikzilla said:I think the best, most recent example of bald faced political hardball was during the Florida recount. The Democrat and Republican political big guns were on tv 3 times a day. The worst of it was when the Republicans burst into the Broward County courthouse to physically disrupt the recount, and when the Dems tried to exclude absentee ballots arriving from mostly military locations.
Heh. I don't even know where to start on that subject. I have an odd feeling neither of us was particularly positively impressed by that dance of thieves, too.
I am saddened when partisan politics hurt this country. This outting of a CIA operative appears to be one such instance. I hope whomever did this thing is caught.
My take is that it's treason, outright and simple. Will the Patriot Act be applied to it like it is being applied to simple criminal offenses?
The Repubs are guilty of hounding Mr. Clinton with a 50 million $ investigation that turned up an Oval office BJ...someone should have been jailed for that fiasco. Then Clinton staffers are caught with FBI files on Republican opponents......the beat goes on.
Rik, it would seem that sometimes we agree.
It makes me almost wonder, what DID Mr. Bill do that we still don't know about?
Conspiracy spinist? It was administration-darling Novak who said it was 2 senior adm. officials. Thus the title of the thread. I am hoping Bush wasn't involved and that he will take the appropriate action.
It is the CIA asking for the investigation.
Wilson may not be able to find the connection, but Novak asserts there is one. I don't like the guy, but he is considered credible.
Avid fan of the Church of the Subgenius? Guilty! An ordained minister. Its the best phony religion (I know that's redundant) there is. And quite funny and fun.
I respect your opinion, and OJ is going to find the real killers.
But enough of your hijack of the thread, back to the show.
It is the CIA asking for the investigation.
Wilson may not be able to find the connection, but Novak asserts there is one. I don't like the guy, but he is considered credible.
Avid fan of the Church of the Subgenius? Guilty! An ordained minister. Its the best phony religion (I know that's redundant) there is. And quite funny and fun.
I respect your opinion, and OJ is going to find the real killers.
But enough of your hijack of the thread, back to the show.
