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White Fragility

They removed the section after I posted. You can find it here:
https://web.archive.org/web/2020062...edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness
Search for "White Dominant Culture".


Whoever made that chart obviously disregarded prior and superior scholarship. According to a later analysis, Joel, B. (1982) identified the following characteristics of White Culture in the U.S.:

Ancestry

fathers:
--fought global imperialist conflict(1)
--spent summers on the Jersey Shore
--danced slow
mothers:
--located at the USO
--also danced slow

Ethics

work hard
behave

Educational Gaps

location of Pennsylvania
what's real, specifically:
--iron
--coke
--chromium steel

Activities

filling out forms
standing in line
coal-taking:
--from the ground
--all of it (leaving none for progressives or POC)
crawling away (union people only)

Personal Qualities

good
hard to keep down

Challenges

restlessness
staying

Characteristic Iconography (see accompanying videographic document)

sweaty muscular shirtless men working in clouds of steam


(1) "Second" World War, possibly as in coming in second, implying they lost this conflict? Further research is needed here, but trustworthy (i.e. later than 2010) primary accounts are scarce.
 
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I'd just like to reformulate my question, because I desperately want to hear what I'm missing.

If there are cultutal discrepancies between races on atttitudes that would be expected to impact life outcomes, why should we expect life outcomes to be similar?

You're barking up the wrong tree by focusing on the parts of the list that "impact life outcomes", and then building chains of speculation on top of that. The infographic for instance does not say anything about "equality vs. equity"; that is a tangent added in this thread by others. It seems to be the consensus of people opposed to the idea of the list that fixating on the "work hard" attribute is the easiest way to attack it, I guess.

But the list is larger than "work hard", and the consequences of equating white cultural values with "proper American-ness" go further than how much money someone makes if they come from a culture that does not make a central value out of living-to-work. For instance, "nuclear families" consisting of a dominant male husband, a submissive wife, and an averaged number of children as the "ideal social unit", isn't related to work ethic or the economic returns of same. Some cultures do not compartmentalize family-units in this manner, valuing larger extended-family groups instead. Some do not attach special attractiveness to every person in a household having their own room (and by extension, having a house large enough to accommodate this want), especially when it comes to children. But a family who chooses to live this way rather than conforming to the "nuclear family" unit will probably be looked at by many as "foreign" or having an inferior or flawed standard of living.

Religion is another one. As the list says, Judeo-Christianity is normalized; all others are "foreign". Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and members of other minority religions aren't seen as "fully American" because of that affiliation. Many Americans become distressed or even angry at the sight of evidence that there are other religions with other holidays than Christianity, and view making space for these religions in America to be a chore or imposition.

Food is a big marker. It is entirely typical for supermarkets to confine food associated with "non-American" cultures in dedicated aisles. There is a spectrum, certainly, of how much any given store or chain of stores commits to this; but by and large you can't find jarred salsa on the shelf next to all of the other tomato-based sauces and products even if it has a logical place there, nor canned refried beans next to literally all the rest of the canned beans the store carries (including preparations like "baked beans" or "pork and beans"), or often even the dry beans. You have to go to the "Mexican food" section for those. You won't find low mein, whether canned or boxed, next to other canned or boxed pasta dinners; you have to go to the "Asian section". Meanwhile outside of these discrete compartments, unless you happen to be at one of those snazzy "international markets" all the rest of the food in the store - the European-majority food, the American food - most typically doesn't get divided into cultural compartments. The closest you might ever get is stores stocking all the dry pasta in the same aisle as all the tomato sauces; but this arrangement most commonly doesn't then get officially labeled the "Italian food section". It's just....food. The regular food. And again, this isn't to say that Americans of Mexican descent are objectively harmed by supermarkets having "Mexican food" sections, or any such thing. It's just to underscore that those Americans' culture visibly isn't recognized as "American" culture; and likewise no matter how many Americans eat low mein, it will never be treated as just regular food.
 
The totality of the infographic is what is meant to represent "whiteness". It doesn't follow that every individual attribute is exclusive.
Clearly none of them are exclusive, except possibly for "bland is best" which I assume we Americans inherited from the Brits before they learned about curry.
 
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Whoever made that chart obviously disregarded prior and superior scholarship. According to a later analysis, Joel, B. (1982) identified the following characteristics of White Culture in the U.S.:

Ancestry

fathers:
--fought global imperialist conflict(1)
--spent summers on the Jersey Shore
--danced slow
mothers:
--located at the USO
--also danced slow

Ethics

work hard
behave

Educational Gaps

location of Pennsylvania
what's real, specifically:
--iron
--coke
--chromium steel

Activities

filling out forms
standing in line
coal-taking:
--from the ground
--all of it (leaving none for progressives or POC)
crawling away (union people only)

Personal Qualities

good
hard to keep down

Challenges

restlessness
staying

Characteristic Iconography (see accompanying videographic document)

sweaty muscular shirtless men working in clouds of steam


(1) "Second" World War, possibly as in coming in second, implying they lost this conflict? Further research is needed here, but trustworthy (i.e. later than 2010) primary accounts are scarce.

:D:thumbsup:
 
I think you give them too much credit. I think the subliminal message is exactly that: if you're a minority and you adopt these values, you're giving in to the white majority.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/11925f1287501cf07.jpg[/qimg]

That image pretty much sums up my thinking. DiAngelo reportedly makes up to $15,000 plus travel, meals and accommodations for a two-hour workshop, during which she appears to tell her hosts how racist they are. And she's booked pretty solid.

The pile-on of the pundits is continuing; Jonathan Chait echoed the racism claims in New York Mag (no link, they won't show me the article because I have reached my free limit for the month).
 
The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility (John McWhorter, The Atlantic)

I must admit that I had not gotten around to actually reading Robin DiAngelo’s White Fragility until recently. But it was time to jump in. DiAngelo is an education professor and—most prominently today—a diversity consultant who argues that whites in America must face the racist bias implanted in them by a racist society. Their resistance to acknowledging this, she maintains, constitutes a “white fragility” that they must overcome in order for meaningful progress on both interpersonal and societal racism to happen.

White Fragility was published in 2018 but jumped to the top of the New York Times best-seller list amid the protests following the death of George Floyd and the ensuing national reckoning about racism. DiAngelo has convinced university administrators, corporate human-resources offices, and no small part of the reading public that white Americans must embark on a self-critical project of looking inward to examine and work against racist biases that many have barely known they had.

I am not convinced. Rather, I have learned that one of America’s favorite advice books of the moment is actually a racist tract. Despite the sincere intentions of its author, the book diminishes Black people in the name of dignifying us. This is unintentional, of course, like the racism DiAngelo sees in all whites. Still, the book is pernicious because of the authority that its author has been granted over the way innocent readers think.
. . .
 
You're barking up the wrong tree by focusing on the parts of the list that "impact life outcomes", and then building chains of speculation on top of that. The infographic for instance does not say anything about "equality vs. equity"; that is a tangent added in this thread by others. It seems to be the consensus of people opposed to the idea of the list that fixating on the "work hard" attribute is the easiest way to attack it, I guess.

Yeah, you guess all right. You're whole post addresses a guess. I haven't said a single thing about the "hard work" element. The sole thing I said about the Equality vs. Equity comic was to advise another poster that the comic was introduced by a poster not affiliated with the infographic (Post #158). I really don't understand where you get off telling me that I'm barking up the wrong tree. Why do you get to decide what I'm trying to achieve in this thread?


Look, I'm a moderate Democrat these days and I'm just trying to understand where the vanguard of the party is. I thought our paradigm was that "cultural differences" between Americans of different races were just cultural-in-the-Arts sense rather than cultural-in-a-deep-Anthropological sense, and therefore not especially important. Certainly not a reason why Black Americans on average have worse outcomes; that's because of discrimination.

I was extremely taken aback by the idea that there are people on my team who believe there might be cultural-rooted differences between the races on stuff like delayed gratification or rational thinking. Those are really important things to value in our society! I even recognize that part of why I instinctually believe these are so important is because I am inculcated in our dominant culture, and that in an anthropological sense that those values need not necessarily be foundational to a culture (you know, the point of the infographic).

But then I go back to the premise that there could be culturally rooted differences between the races on such fundamental values. That potentially undermines the idea that differences in outcomes between the races ar due to discrimination. If Greens value delayed gratification and Blues don't value delayed gratification, it is just silly to assume that they'll end up with equal 401ks on average.

That conclusion, which I think follows pretty closely from the preposition put forth by the infographic (hardly a chain of speculation! If Xa!=Xb then E[|f(Xa) - f(Xb)|]>0.) makes me deeply uncomfortable.

So I'd like to be told what specifically I am misunderstanding. If progressives accept that there can be culturally rooted racial discrepancies on important values, why should we expect outcomes to be similar?
 
If progressives accept that there can be culturally rooted racial discrepancies on important values, why should we expect outcomes to be similar?

Don't we already have to accept that there are culturally-driven discrepancies on more trivial values (e.g. love of basketball) so as to explain disparate outcomes at the most competitive levels of play?
 
I was extremely taken aback by the idea that there are people on my team who believe there might be cultural-rooted differences between the races on stuff like delayed gratification or rational thinking.
For better or for worse, I think there are certainly significant differences in outlook, attitude and behaviour that are to do with culture and hence map pretty well onto race and are clearly going to impact outcomes. Not so long ago I was studying for a module on globalisation and that covered lots of research on such differences going back decades. Lots of the early work was done by IBM if you are interested in looking it up. Some cultures absolutely have a different attitude to punctuality. Some cultures defer to authority much more than others. Some place high importance on saving face and honour, some don't. Remember the Japanese fans cleaning up after themselves after being knocked out of the World Cup by Colombia, that stood out because few other nations would have done that. There are many, many such differences and they all have an impact. If you had a culture where being respected/honour and saving face was high, while respect for authority was low.... would you expect their interactions with police to go them same as cultures where the opposite was true?
 
If you favor equity, not equality (from the pic about standing on boxes at the fence), then a culture or individual that does not favor hard work to get ahead - or individuality, or anything else on the whiteness poster from the Smithsonian - is represented by one of the shorter people, and to give the shorter people big enough boxes to see over the fence is the same as accepting that culture for what it is, totally, instead of seeing it as insufficient, which is a negative evaluation of it (= racist).

This is also congruent with equality of outcomes, not opportunities. Criticizing equality of outcomes necessarily means criticizing the culture that led to the unequal outcomes, and condemning the culture - or an individual exhibiting the culture's values - is racist.

Is that what the graphic tries to say (as charitably as possible)? Is that as much sense as it can make?
This is what I understand it to mean. Culture is a game with winners and losers. The rules of the game are arbitrary and set by those in power to their own advantage. White people are in power, therefore the rules where set up by them to favour them. All the things that it takes to get on in the west are "whiteness", since their purpose is to ensure white supremacy.
 
I'd just like to reformulate my question, because I desperately want to hear what I'm missing.

If there are cultutal discrepancies between races on atttitudes that would be expected to impact life outcomes, why should we expect life outcomes to be similar?
I don't think it is exactly a question of "expect". People get a particular outcome based on the rules of the game. Maybe you live in a society that values punctuality, but you are late for everything.... you are at a disadvantage. If you were unchanged, but society no longer viewed turning up late all the time negatively, you wouldn't be at a disadvantage. This kind of thing does differ widely from culture to culture.

If the rules of the game are arbitrary, then the outcomes are a choice. Do we choose to set the game up so that white people (and asians) do well? - then you have the current rules. It's a choice though. If we identify the things that allow people to succeed in our society - hard work, being goal orientated and success driven... and make it so they aren't an advantage, then everybody gets an equal outcome.
 
I was extremely taken aback by the idea that there are people on my team who believe there might be cultural-rooted differences between the races on stuff like delayed gratification or rational thinking. Those are really important things to value in our society! I even recognize that part of why I instinctually believe these are so important is because I am inculcated in our dominant culture, and that in an anthropological sense that those values need not necessarily be foundational to a culture (you know, the point of the infographic).

But then I go back to the premise that there could be culturally rooted differences between the races on such fundamental values. That potentially undermines the idea that differences in outcomes between the races ar due to discrimination. If Greens value delayed gratification and Blues don't value delayed gratification, it is just silly to assume that they'll end up with equal 401ks on average.

No, it doesn't. The reason you're so confused is because you're arguing against a strawman.

The list, and the argument behind it on the website on which it was posted, was never about economic outcomes. It was about social acceptance, conformity, and (by extension) otherfication for not meeting a paradigm.

The question is not about whether minorities don't value hard work. It's about whether they tie positive life circumstances and goal achievement to "hard work" in the dogmatic way that WASP-culture-defined "proper Americans" do, so that someone being successful or well-off is taken as proof of hard work, and somebody being poor or not achieving a goal proves that they didn't work "hard enough". They're talking about social perceptions and presumptions, and the consequences of those, not economic reality. Nowhere on the Smithsonian website is or was it ever argued that "black folk are poor because they don't work hard, and that's a cultural thing that needs to be accommodated". You really allowed yourself to be convinced that's what was being argued?

You guys got started off on that tangent because some people here arbitrarily assumed that because list existed and list had the word "whiteness" on it, that this necessarily implied "things on list bad", and they got all indignant and defensive over "what's so bad about [thing on list]?". That's the premise you've been engaging over; but it's a straw premise. The list never said, explicitly or implicitly, that "things in list not good".
 
I am still stuck on where punctuality became a certain ethnicity's trait.

Because it is an observed sociological phenomenon, and it takes very minor immersion into a different culture to realize that punctuality is arbitrary and how late someone arrives is a social norms.clearly grasped by people in the culture.

It just doesn't matter if the time given for a party in the US is said to start at 7 and one in mexico city is set at 5 and people show up at 7.
 
The list, and the argument behind it on the website on which it was posted, was never about economic outcomes. It was about social acceptance, conformity, and (by extension) otherfication for not meeting a paradigm.

Does your culture allow people to assert a preposition is true and then later assert it is false when it's inconvenient? My culture recognizes that such behavior is inconsistent, untenable, and not respectable.

The question is not about whether minorities don't value hard work. It's about whether they tie positive life circumstances and goal achievement to "hard work" in the dogmatic way that WASP-culture-defined "proper Americans" do, so that someone being successful or well-off is taken as proof of hard work, and somebody being poor or not achieving a goal proves that they didn't work "hard enough".

I don't know why you keep going to the "hard work" one, I have never mentioned it. For what it's worth, I have avoided this because the infographic is not as simplistic as "hard work", and the concept of "hard work" is nebulous (e.g., does it mean physically intensive tasks?).

They're talking about social perceptions and presumptions, and the consequences of those, not economic reality.

Are you denying that economic realities can be a consequence of social perceptions?

If Alice was raised to saving for the future should be a priority and Bob was not raised to believe saving for the future is a priority, do you deny that their perceptions will have an impact on their retirements account balances?

If Alice is raised to believe "Wealth = Worth" (A quote from the infographic, this is referring to "worth" as in personal value) and Bob is not raised to believe "Wealth = Worth", all things being equal, won't Alice probably be wealthier than Bob?

Nowhere on the Smithsonian website is or was it ever argued that "black folk are poor because they don't work hard, and that's a cultural thing that needs to be accommodated". You really allowed yourself to be convinced that's what was being argued?

Why are you suggesting I'm saying this is an explicit argument of theirs? Are you deliberately misconstruing my position or is this unintentional? I'm saying the position that there are significant culturally rooted differences has potential implications.

You guys got started off on that tangent because some people here arbitrarily assumed that because list existed and list had the word "whiteness" on it, that this necessarily implied "things on list bad", and they got all indignant and defensive over "what's so bad about [thing on list]?". That's the premise you've been engaging over; but it's a straw premise. The list never said, explicitly or implicitly, that "things in list not good".
And you appear to have based your entire side of the conversation on assuming what people were saying rather than reading their posts.

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove breach of rule 12. Please familiarise yourself with the Membership Agreement to which you agreed on joining.
 
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Don't we already have to accept that there are culturally-driven discrepancies on more trivial values (e.g. love of basketball) so as to explain disparate outcomes at the most competitive levels of play?

I thought we turn away from drawing conclusions based on tiny populations (i.e., the NBA league), and assume that in the aggregate that important cultural values have similar distributions.
 
I don't think it is exactly a question of "expect". People get a particular outcome based on the rules of the game. Maybe you live in a society that values punctuality, but you are late for everything.... you are at a disadvantage. If you were unchanged, but society no longer viewed turning up late all the time negatively, you wouldn't be at a disadvantage. This kind of thing does differ widely from culture to culture.

If the rules of the game are arbitrary, then the outcomes are a choice. Do we choose to set the game up so that white people (and asians) do well? - then you have the current rules. It's a choice though. If we identify the things that allow people to succeed in our society - hard work, being goal orientated and success driven... and make it so they aren't an advantage, then everybody gets an equal outcome.

I understand that punctuality is a relative value, and that those who are aligned with the dominant culture will be at an advantage. But punctuality is distinct from some of the list items which have their own effects independent of the dominant culture.

Example 1. Jim is a Blue in a purple dominant culture. Purples value punctuality where blues do not. All things else being equal, we assume that Jim's outcomes (education, career, dating, etc.) will be worse than the average purple.

Example 2. Jim is a blue in a orange dominant culture. Blues think their personal worth is defined by their wealth and oranges do not. All things else being equal, despite not aligning with the dominant culture, we would expect Jim to be wealthier than the average orange (though perhaps a bit of an outcast because the oranges see him as miserly).

I get saying we should be aware of how American culture pushes "Wealth = Worth", and I totally agree that we should resist looking down at people who choose to defy the "Weath = Worth" paradigm. But should we act surprised when those people have less money? Should we be offended when someone who is ok with calling it quits when their basic needs are met has less money than someone needs to maximize their income to feel like a worthwhile human? Should we take efforts to make sure that these people all have the aame amount of money?

Edit: Or, is this whole idea that Americans of different races, on average have meaningfully different cultural values on important aspect of modern life pernicious?
 
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I thought we turn away from drawing conclusions based on tiny populations (i.e., the NBA league), and assume that in the aggregate that important cultural values have similar distributions.
The relevant underlying population is all the kids who'd be happy to make the leap from playing ball in school to playing on scholarship, and then another leap to playing in the pros. Far from tiny, if you're looking at the entire process instead of the end result.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 
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