Where is your experience?

[Lowpro]

The brain is in a vat at a laboratory attached to a machine for its life support, its body its at the train, and there is an advanced remote connection between the body and the brain (sort of an advanced WiFi) And yes, there are at least two questions at hand, where do we (as external observers) point at when we want to say where the subject is. And where does the subject points to when questioned about where "he is".

There's a pragmatic answer to this you know, and if you watched that BBC horizon the answer again will be pragmatic, not philosophical.

If the subject's brain is in a vat then he will percieve himself in the body wherever it is, similar to the BBC horizon video where the main guy thought he was in the other guy's body thanks to the sense deprivation and cameras.

Now, the pragmatic answer to the observer...the guy's in both places obviously -.- the brain's in the vat, the body (probe) is out probing.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Has anyone here suffered from or familiar with Alice in Wonderland Syndrome?

 

[Halfcentaur]

The former, please excuse my modals.

Thank you for attempting to come to some common ground.

 

[marplots]

Has anyone here suffered from or familiar with Alice in Wonderland Syndrome?

No, but I did a round of Alice in Chains syndrome. Best forgotten.

 

[Lowpro]

No, but I did a round of Alice in Chains syndrome. Best forgotten.

oh come now, AiC aren't bad...

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Has anyone here suffered from or familiar with Alice in Wonderland Syndrome?

Wow no, sounds both scaring and intriguing... have you?

 

[Stomatopoda]

This should really be in Religion&Philosophy

 

[punshhh]

There is that “je ne sais quoi” feeling of mysticism that we can apply to any unanalyzed collective abstraction.

Try applying it to existence itself.

Cultivating a subtle understanding and appreciation of art is very rewarding in deepening the capacities of the mind.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

This should really be in Religion&Philosophy

Disagree.

First of all, it is WRONG that Philosophy shares a place in the forum with religion... one is a discipline to learn to think, to explore what constitutes knowledge, to analyze the properties of language and to make theoretical frameworks that allows us to explore the universe using tools like science... and the other one is a collection of myths for lesser intelects.

That said, the study of what constitutes our identity is a scientific endeavor, so this is the right forum. Thanks.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

There's a pragmatic answer to this you know, and if you watched that BBC horizon the answer again will be pragmatic, not philosophical.

Well, pragmatism... IS a philosophy I don't know what happened at the JREF, I consider that it is absurd that "religion" can share a subforum with "philosophy", in a way, that renders them to be at the same (relative) category and many members at the JREF believe that philosophy is some kind of nonsensical rambling... yeah.. right...

If the subject's brain is in a vat then he will percieve himself in the body wherever it is, similar to the BBC horizon video where the main guy thought he was in the other guy's body thanks to the sense deprivation and cameras.

Exactly my point, one that it might not be obvious at first sight, because we are so accustomed to our normal reference point that these kind of questions are starting to arise (thanks to philosophical inquiry using science as a tool).

Now, the pragmatic answer to the observer...the guy's in both places obviously -.- the brain's in the vat, the body (probe) is out probing.

Now, this is an interesting analysis. I would have to disagree, but it is certainly a good point. I believe the guy, the personality, his "sense of who he is" is located at the train, but that it wouldn't be able to be there without the connection to its brain.

 

[marplots]

Commenting on the BBC horizon thing, you said:

Exactly my point, one that it might not be obvious at first sight, because we are so accustomed to our normal reference point that these kind of questions are starting to arise (thanks to philosophical inquiry using science as a tool).

So is your question, "Where is your experience?" or is it "Where does it feel like your experience is?"

Different questions.

 

[punshhh]

It is commonly accepted that the brain, somehow, produces the mind, at least in the JREF of course. If this is the case, where is the mind? It is located in the brain? The experience that makes you feel you, its inside your head?

What do you think about it?

Discuss.

Are you considering that the human mind is present in spacetime, or that its somewhere else?

 

[TeapotCavalry]

So is your question, "Where is your experience?" or is it "Where does it feel like your experience is?"

Different questions.

Precisely!

I believe the guy, the personality, his "sense of who he is" is located at the train, but that it wouldn't be able to be there without the connection to its brain.

The guy, the personality, his "sense of who he is" are "located" in the brain, he just feels he's on the train, because his body, senses are. The experience still occurs in his brain.

 

[JoeMorgue]

- Ask question a simple but loaded question with an obvious answer.
- Get simple direct answer.
- Ask question again using more words and vaguer language
- Get the same simple answer because you didn't actually change your base question.
- Ask the question yet again, wording it even vaguer this time. Use word salad and wall of text.
- Yet again get the same simple answer.
- Ask the question again, but add solipsistic special pleading.
- Yet again get the same simple answer.
- Ask the same question yet again. At this point start making up neat sounding but useless phrases like "Outside of plane of space/time" or "Beyond the realm of the comprehensible" or "Outside the veil of the formless horizon of the energy of the mind."
- Yet again get the same simple answer.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

So is your question, "Where is your experience?" or is it "Where does it feel like your experience is?"

Different questions.

The guy, the personality, his "sense of who he is" are "located" in the brain, he just feels he's on the train, because his body, senses are. The experience still occurs in his brain.

Are there really two questions? Let's see.. if you feel something, this feeling is part of the experience... So, I believe there is just one question; Where is your experience?, which includes of course everything you believe, you think, you feel, you sense, etc.

Now, the pragmatic answer to the observer...the guy's in both places obviously -.- the brain's in the vat, the body (probe) is out probing.

I brought this post by Lowpro again as its relevant, he has a slightly different guess... I would say that, no, he can't be in both places simultaneously and what introduces the "noise" is the link to the brain and the belief about it "somehow contains" the experience.

IMO; "experience" is something located at the location is happening, in this case, the train. The consciousness of the subject is right there, not in any other place... now.. that if we cut the link to the brain the consciousness would return to the brain (assuming that consciousness can happen without any propioceptive or senses information) is correct, as the brain (in relation to the senses) is what allows experience to happen.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

- Ask question a simple but loaded question with an obvious answer.
- Get simple direct answer.
- Ask question again using more words and vaguer language
- Get the same simple answer because you didn't actually change your base question.
- Ask the question yet again, wording it even vaguer this time. Use word salad and wall of text.
- Yet again get the same simple answer.
- Ask the question again, but add solipsistic special pleading.
- Yet again get the same simple answer.
- Ask the same question yet again. At this point start making up neat sounding but useless phrases like "Outside of plane of space/time" or "Beyond the realm of the comprehensible" or "Outside the veil of the formless horizon of the energy of the mind."
- Yet again get the same simple answer.

Really, straw mans are obtuse and negligent. Read the thread and you are welcomed to discuss, other than that, you have no business here.

 

[Lowpro]

IMO; "experience" is something located at the location is happening, in this case, the train. The consciousness of the subject is right there, not in any other place... now.. that if we cut the link to the brain the consciousness would return to the brain (assuming that consciousness can happen without any propioceptive or senses information) is correct, as the brain (in relation to the senses) is what allows experience to happen.

Well are we dealing again with experience being equal to the word perception? Because I agree that the brain, assuming all all PNS activity were being transmitted "perfectly" to the brain even with the distance the PERCEPTION would probably be that the subject would perceive his or herself on the train, not as a brain in the vat. This is simple to explain; the brain itself doesn't have the "probe" of the body to determine where it is (maybe it does if there are receptors in and around the brain that determine location, but that's a minor consideration to the experiment you're talking about) regardless all perception would determine that you are indeed on the train.

However, ALL that perception IS transmitted to the brain where the perceptions are summated. That's why I actually think the one subject being in two places at once is accurate.

Example: Let's take the BBC Horizon video to an extreme. Let's have the one guy with the screens be labeled (A) and the guy with the camera labeled (B). We already see the effects of when the two are standing across from eachother, A receives the sight stimuli from B and the brain interprets it as it being his own stimuli. Well let's send B on a train then. A will perceive B as still being himself throughout the train ride, at least visually. A might as well JUST be the brain in the vat at this point too! But it's still the stimuli of B's movements being summated in A's brain. For all intents and purposes he might as well be in both places. It'd be basically a very very very complex periscope/fiberoptic eye. B is a prosthesis of A. A does the perceiving, and B is just the probe that transmits the stimuli to be perceived.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

IMO; "experience" is something located at the location is happening, in this case, the train. The consciousness of the subject is right there, not in any other place... now.. that if we cut the link to the brain the consciousness would return to the brain (assuming that consciousness can happen without any propioceptive or senses information) is correct, as the brain (in relation to the senses) is what allows experience to happen.

experience
"n.
1. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the senses or mind: a child's first experience of snow.
2.
a. Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill: a lesson taught by experience; a carpenter with experience in roof repair.
b. The knowledge or skill so derived.
3.
a. An event or a series of events participated in or lived through.
b. The totality of such events in the past of an individual or group."

I think you use "experience" as the underlined part, and I use it as the bolded part. That's all there is to it.

Btw, where would you say the experiences of dreams happen? At the place the dreamer perceives himself to be?

 

[I Ratant]

experience
"n.
1. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the senses or mind: a child's first experience of snow.
...

.
I watched a feral kitten's first experience with standing water. It jumped from a low wall into a shallow puddle... and, if it could have raised all four feet at the same time...

 

[Lowpro]

Btw, where would you say the experiences of dreams happen? At the place the dreamer perceives himself to be?

It's like the MMAAAAAAAAAAATRIIIIIIIIIIXXXXXX!!!