Where does Oil come from?

[geni]

Where did you get that definition? I've never seen it.

Chemistry lecture. As with any defintion that has evolved over time you will get a few exceptions but that is the closest you will get to a bright line.

Is carbon dioxide inorganic?

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly inorganic

methanol?

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly organic

methane?

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly organic

cyanide?

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly inorganic

carbon monoxide?

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly inorganic

carbon tetrachloride?

Could go either way

Hokulele was right in a way. There is no bright line between organic and inorganic chemistry when you get down to one-carbon molecules but, no, cabonates are not considered inorganic by chemists. As a matter of facts, many organic syntheses begin with carbonates.

And many begin with magnesium.

 

[DavidS]

Thanks Tricky! One question, how common is it for petroleum products to surface? Would La Brea tar pits be an example of this?

Quite common, but the volumes vary tremendously. Methane, being a small molecule, is seeping out almost continuously, along with other lighter molecules. Tar pits are somewhat less common, but often when you see tar, there are actually lots of lighter hydrocarbons that you can't see.

One way of exploring for hydrocarbons is to do a series of samples across the surface of a potential field and look for hydrocarbon anomalies.

Tricky's hit all the high spots nicely and his expertise far surpasses mine in this area, so I'll just insert some examples.

Yes, the La Brea tar pits are an example of petroleum migrating all the way to surface. The volatile components were lost to evaporation (or segregation into traps along the migration route), leaving the remaining heavy hydrocarbons -- "tar". There are also many subsurface oil reservoirs in the basin, traps that intercepted and accumulated hydrocarbons migrating upward. Even in those subsurface reservoirs, much of the petroleum in that basin is pretty heavy stuff that would leave much tarry residue if left puddled in a surface depression.

There are many hydrocarbon seeps beneath the Gulf of Mexico. Some of it is "oil" (the generic term for natural hydrocarbon liquids, especially at ordinary temperature and pressure). Some of it is "gas" (hydrocarbon vapor).

The GoM seabed is dotted with little depressions filled with hypersaline water associated with such seeps, around which the chemical energy of the hydrocarbon fuels local ecosystems of tubeworms, shrimp, etc. in a sort of cold analog of the hydrothermal vent communities associated with undersea vulcanism.

The surface of the GoM is streaked by many, many little "slicks", not all of which are human-created spills. Some years back National Geographic ran an article on the subject, which included an estimate of the rate of oil seepage from such natural seeps; alas, I've forgotten the number and can't go look up the reference right now.

 

[Slimething]

Chemistry lecture. As with any defintion that has evolved over time you will get a few exceptions but that is the closest you will get to a bright line.

Did you tell the lecturer he was wrong? There are more than a few exceptions to the notion that organic chemistry is based on a carbon-to-carbon bond. There are too many organic molecules with no such bond for me to list. Simply stated, the lecturer was wrong and you're continuing his/her error.

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly inorganic

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly organic

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly organic

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly inorganic

Depends what you are doing with it but generaly inorganic

Could go either way

So, now you're saying that a molecule's being organic or inorganic dependes how it will be used? I thought you said earlier that it depended on structure. What is it about the molecules I gave you that made you decide that some were inorganic? For example, why is carbon dioxide inorganic? Is carbonic acid a mineral acid or an organic (carboxylic) diacid? Why is cyanide inorganic? Is cyanic acid a mineral acid?

Nope, sorry. You can't go choosing whether a molecule is organic or not by the intentions of the person wielding the spatula.

And many begin with magnesium.

With no carbon source, huh? No organic halide? I've done this one. Give me a little credit.

 

[Madalch]

Did you tell the lecturer he was wrong? There are more than a few exceptions to the notion that organic chemistry is based on a carbon-to-carbon bond. There are too many organic molecules with no such bond for me to list. Simply stated, the lecturer was wrong and you're continuing his/her error.

Allow me to bonk slimething and genii over the head with my PhD in organometallic chemistry, and explain that for a compound to be considered organic by chemists, it generally has to contain either carbon-carbon or carbon-hydrogen bonds.

So acetic acid, formic acid and oxalic acid are all organic compounds. Carbonic acid isn't. Calcium carbonate isn't. Sodium bicarbonate isn't.

Methane and methanol are organic compounds. Carbon dioxide and carbon tetrachloride are not.

Diamond cannot be considered an organic compound because it's not a compound- it is pure carbon, which is an element. The classification of inorganic/organic only applies to compounds, not to elements or their allotropes.

Hydrocyanic acid is just barely considered to be organic; cyanide salts are not.

The trash heap has spoken. Nyah.

 

[Mojo]

Allow me to bonk slimething and genii over the head with my PhD in organometallic chemistry, and explain that for a compound to be considered organic by chemists, it generally has to contain either carbon-carbon or carbon-hydrogen bonds.

So acetic acid, formic acid and oxalic acid are all organic compounds. Carbonic acid isn't. Calcium carbonate isn't. Sodium bicarbonate isn't.

Methane and methanol are organic compounds. Carbon dioxide and carbon tetrachloride are not.

Diamond cannot be considered an organic compound because it's not a compound- it is pure carbon, which is an element. The classification of inorganic/organic only applies to compounds, not to elements or their allotropes.

Hydrocyanic acid is just barely considered to be organic; cyanide salts are not.

The trash heap has spoken. Nyah.

I'm just a humble BSc, but I'll go along with this.

 

[Slimething]

Allow me to bonk slimething and genii over the head with my PhD in organometallic chemistry,

and explain that for a compound to be considered organic by chemists, it generally has to contain either carbon-carbon or carbon-hydrogen bonds.

Now I can say that I've met a chemist who does not believe that carbon disulfide or carbon tetrachloride are organic solvents. Molecules like hexachlordimethyl ether also would not be. Nor would trichloro-1,3,5-triazine. I should hang my head in shame.

Carbonic acid isn't.

Funny. It doesn't act like an inorganic acid. How does it get it's acidity? Sure looks like electron displacement to me. Can you name any other inorganic acids that do the same? I was fooled into believing it was a carboxylic diacid due to its ionization mechanism. Shows what I know.

Calcium carbonate isn't. Sodium bicarbonate isn't.

Methane and methanol are organic compounds. Carbon dioxide and carbon tetrachloride are not.

Do go on. I've already posted several compounds that don't fit your rule.

Hydrocyanic acid is just barely considered to be organic; cyanide salts are not.

Pretty quirky there. Organicity has levels? So, an intact acid is organic but, when it forms a salt with a metal ion, it's not. Can't quite accept that, doc.

 

[geni]

Ok will you accept C60 nanotubes and graphite and inorganic?

 

[Slimething]

Ok will you accept C60 nanotubes and graphite and inorganic?

Yeah, let's move on. Sorry for the rant!

 

[Mojo]

Methane and methanol are organic compounds. Carbon dioxide and carbon tetrachloride are not.

How about if we call it tetrachloromethane?

 

[athon]

Keep in mind I nearly failed Organic Chem (but did extremely well at biochem), I always thought organic chemistry involved molecules that contained at least carbon and hydrogen?

I know it's probably more complicated than that, but for all this time that was essentially its defining feature.

Athon

 

[Molinaro]

Now I can say that I've met a chemist who does not believe that carbon disulfide or carbon tetrachloride are organic solvents. Molecules like hexachlordimethyl ether also would not be. Nor would trichloro-1,3,5-triazine. I should hang my head in shame.

... and explain that for a compound to be considered organic by chemists, it generally has to contain either carbon-carbon or carbon-hydrogen bonds.

When I see someone include the word "generaly", immediately prior to stating some rule, I tend to take that as an indication of the existance of exceptions to that rule.

So did Slimy 'accidently' miss the word "generaly" when bolding Madalch's quote? Or was that just straighforward dishonesty?

 

[Slimething]

When I see someone include the word "generaly", immediately prior to stating some rule, I tend to take that as an indication of the existance of exceptions to that rule.

So did Slimy 'accidently' miss the word "generaly" when bolding Madalch's quote? Or was that just straighforward dishonesty?

Saying generally and then using the rule to disqualify candidate molecules with absolute certainty is the dishonesty. Or didn't you notice how carbonic acid is NOT organic but formic acid IS? Where is this "generally" stuff n that case? Does it only come in to play when the rule is obviously wrong?

 

[Slimething]

Keep in mind I nearly failed Organic Chem (but did extremely well at biochem), I always thought organic chemistry involved molecules that contained at least carbon and hydrogen?

We're quibbling over carbonates. Slimey is arguing that they're organic due to their electronic characteristics while the evil guys think it's inorganic because it's found in rocks. Carbonates, by the way, have cabon and oxygen and, at one time, had hydrogen. However, even poor bicarbonate, with its lone hydrogen, can't catch a break as it's been labeled inorganic by the truly evil.

I would like to point out that while a few have proposed rules, and one "generally" rule, on what is organic and what isn't, all have fallen except mine. If you missed it, organic is a molecule that contains carbon bound covalentely to any other atom and is in sp1, sp2 or sp3 arrangement. Anybody have an exception to that one? If not, carbonates are organic.

 

[Molinaro]

I'm no chemist. I did pull out my CRC handbook of chemistry and physics and note that some of what Madalch listed as not organic is in fact listed as organic in the handbook.

I don't see the significance in pointing to a few examples that contradict a rule characterized as generaly correct. It merely supports the idea that it is only generaly correct.

To see how often it is correct, I would have to go through the 15,031 organic compounds, and the 4,126 inorganic compounds listed to see how many break the rule.

 

[Slimething]

I don't see the significance in pointing to a few examples that contradict a rule characterized as generaly correct. It merely supports the idea that it is only generaly correct.

If someone pulled a rule out of thin air to rebut your statements and prefixed it as "generally" because they weren't sure of it, you'd see significance. If the rule is offered as a "rule of thumb", sure, science and math are full of those and they're very handy. However, one does not go about judging A as necessarily definitively this or that on a rule of thumb.

BTW, I don't want to give the impression that this is my idea. A long time ago, I read a book by Isaac Asimov called The World of Carbon, unfortunately no longer in print. You'll find a brilliant dissertation on what qualifies as organic and what does not in there. It's a very blurry line but anyone who doesn't considered hydrated carbon dioxide salts as organic is missing a major chunk of the carbon cycle on this planet.

 

[robinson]

Slime, please shut the hell up.

 

[robinson]

Diamond cannot be considered an organic compound because it's not a compound- it is pure carbon, which is an element. The classification of inorganic/organic only applies to compounds, not to elements or their allotropes.

Thanks for the information.

As to the topic question, Oil comes from under the ground.

 

[Slimething]

Slime, please shut the hell up.

This one I'm going to wear with pride.

Let's see if this worked. Yes it did!

 

[robinson]

[Off Topic] For those out of the loop, the "shut up" thing started with Cleon, here;

Oh, shut up, MaGZ.

Which rolled into an entire thread here, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2914384#post2914384
in which many people are told to shut up. Don't take it too seriously. [/Off Topic]

This controversy over Oil is interesting. The Russian papers and evidence are pretty solid stuff. I wonder if there is a socioeconomic factor in knowng the truth of the matter? If Carbon fuels are actually part of the earth, and are always bubbling up, this means the estimates of Oil and production could be wrong.

I remember when they first went back and checked old wells that had gone dry, and found they had filled up again. Who knew?

 

[Madalch]

Funny. It (carbonic acid) doesn't act like an inorganic acid. How does it get it's acidity? Sure looks like electron displacement to me. Can you name any other inorganic acids that do the same? I was fooled into believing it was a carboxylic diacid due to its ionization mechanism. Shows what I know.

Well, then, let's hear how the acidity of carbonic acid is so much different from, say, sulphurous acid.

Pretty quirky there. Organicity has levels? So, an intact acid is organic but, when it forms a salt with a metal ion, it's not. Can't quite accept that, doc.

Some chemists will consider hydrocyanic acid to be organic, others won't. Nobody considers sodium cyanide to be an organic compound.

If you missed it, organic is a molecule that contains carbon bound covalentely to any other atom and is in sp1, sp2 or sp3 arrangement. Anybody have an exception to that one? If not, carbonates are organic.

Actually, no- by this definition, an ionic compound such as sodium carbonate or potassium benzoate would not be organic, since ions are not molecules.

Why specify the hybridization as sp1,2,3? Do you know any examples where carbon is covalently bonded, but not in one of these arrangements?

If you want to continue arguing, well, then I might have to bonk you on the head with my thesis rather than my degree...