• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

When Science and Politics Clash

Most people have already responded to the Y2K thing. I was involved in that, too, working on a system designed and written in the 1980s that was supposed to be retired in 1997 or 1998, until the replacement project went way over schedule.

I've heard that Eastern Bloc countries didn't put nearly the effort into their Y2K preparations that the West did, and yet still came out relatively unscathed. I suspect it was a case of 80/20: they fixed the critical 20% of the systems that accounted for 80% of the risk, and then fixed the others as needed.

That, and the fact that there simply wasn't the widespread computerization yet in most of their systems, and the systems that were in place were of relatively recent vintage in most cases and were installed with programs that were designed with Y2K already on the near future horizon. I'm not trying to say that there were no issues, just that, at that time, there simply weren't as many ubiquitous computerized services relying on early generation code, acting in the background of eastern bloc nations.
 
Some scientists, unaware of Regression to the Mean apparently, and also apparently unaware of the difference between climate and weather, also predicted the year after Katrina would be horrible, but it was mild for hurricanes.

Yup. That, too.
 
How about asbestos?

The construction and ship building industry continued to use that crap right up until the day it was actually outlawed.
 
Asbestos -- now that's a major black eye for Canada on the world stage. We're still mining and exporting it, and the politicians refuse to shut down the mine because asbestos is not illegal in the countries we're exporting it to.
 
Lots of myths about gay people have zero support from the scientific community:

- that gay men molest children are far higher rates than straight men.
- that AIDS is a gay disease.
- that gay people could simply choose to be attracted to opposite-sex partners if they weren't so busy being deviant and immoral.
- that same-gender partners are ineffective parents..
- that gay men have an average lifespan of 42 years.
- that no one could feel naturally gay unless something bad happened to them (molestation, overbearing mother / bad parenting).

Needless to say, pesky things like "facts" don't stop people from parroting these myths.
 
There's one example that doesn't really involve science but does involve critical thinking. It was the invasion of the Soviet Union during WWII. Although presented with copious evidence that Germany was going to attack, Stalin rejected it all and proclaimed that Germany was NOT going to attack. Some of the denial was quite humorous, as with the incident where a German spy plane was allowed to land at a Soviet air base, was GIVEN FUEL, and allowed to return to Germany.

Despite Stalin's insistence that it wouldn't happen, the largest land invasion in history occured a few weeks later.

If you include logistical analysis as a science then there was a major failing on the German side as well. German General Staff analysis showed that the invasion and occupation of the Soviet Union was impossible, even if the Russian military did nothing to resist. They lacked sufficient manpower, trucks, fuel, supplies and railway equipment to secure the territory. The plan (like the Ardennes offensive later) depended on capturing enemy supplies.

Earlier the political leadership ignored similar problems with the plan for Operation Sealion. Had Goering ever delivered air superiority, as promised, the invasion would probably have failed for lack of transport.
 
When scientists give information and warnings based on that information, only to have politics disagrees, there seems to be a pattern:
  • Scientists say, "We believe this is true, and suggest that unless we take some sort of action, bad things will happen"
  • Politicians and people with vested interests stonewall any action. In effect, the scientists lose the first few rounds of the debate
  • Bad things happen much as the scientists said. In effect, science wins in the end.

I can think of the following where this scenario has played out:
  • Galileo's defense of the heliocentric model of the solar system
  • The collapse of the Newfoundland cod fishery
  • The last launch of the space shuttle Challenger
  • Global warming

Can anyone add to the list?

Perhaps more importantly, can people provide counter-examples? For example, scientists make warnings, public policy is made and laws are passed based on the warnings, and then it turns out the science was wrong. Or the warnings of scientists were ignored or downplayed and in the end it turns out that was the correct position.

Satanic Ritual Abuse
 
Some scientists, unaware of Regression to the Mean apparently, and also apparently unaware of the difference between climate and weather, also predicted the year after Katrina would be horrible, but it was mild for hurricanes.

Got reference? That was only 6 years ago. Hurricane prediction is in its developmental infancy and I know that predictions were made but I don't recall them being wild or hyperbolic, again, I don't spend much time in popular media some of which indeed seems prone to such episodes. I know that the Atlantic season was about average and globally the season was active. The main category that was out of the norms, is the category that was most clearly predicted by hurricane researchers as the category most likely to increase (statistically) from warmer surface waters which is "storm strength."

In 2006, there were 21 category 4-5 storms, the average number of such storms is 17, and the record set the year before was 25.
 
When scientists give information and warnings based on that information, only to have politics disagrees, there seems to be a pattern:
This is because you cannot derive an ought from an is. Scientists define the is, and politicians independently define the ought.
 
Lots of myths about gay people have zero support from the scientific community:

- that gay men molest children are far higher rates than straight men.
- that AIDS is a gay disease.
- that gay people could simply choose to be attracted to opposite-sex partners if they weren't so busy being deviant and immoral.
- that same-gender partners are ineffective parents..
- that gay men have an average lifespan of 42 years.
- that no one could feel naturally gay unless something bad happened to them (molestation, overbearing mother / bad parenting).

Needless to say, pesky things like "facts" don't stop people from parroting these myths.
Oh, for sure. And public policy is being made based on the myths and not on the science. And in some parts of the world, the policies have gay people in jail, or worse in the grave.
 
Hurricane Katrina.

Not the actual hurricane itself, but the consequences of a direct hit to New Orleans. Scientists and engineers had been sounding the alarm about that particular disaster-waiting-to-happen for years before Katrina, and all the politicians just ignored them.

Until it happened. Then the politicians said stupid crap like: "Nobody could have anticipated that the levies would fail."

:rolleyes:
I've been griping about this for years. It's weird for me to see you mention this at this time (though it's reassuring to see that someone else remembers this the same way I do), since I've been working on a blog article in which I used the Katrina disaster as an analogy. A few examples of the warnings we had are:

*LSU and the US Army Corps of Engineers developed a computer model and published a report in 2002 about the effects of a cat 5 hurricane striking New Orleans;
*The Houston Chronicle and the Times-Picayune published articles on this topic in 2001 and 2002;
*National Geographic published a story describing the aftermath of a cat 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans which could easily have you thinking that it is actually describing Katrina if you didn't know that it was published in 2004--one year before Katrina;
*The Weather Channel was working on a new series called "It Could Happen Tomorrow" and the first episode was about what would happen if a major hurricane struck New Orleans. They finished the episode by mid-summer 2005, but unfortunately it wasn't scheduled to air until January 2006. Katrina struck in August 2005.

Then that bastion of intellect Michael Chertoff had the audacity to go on television and say "No one could have forseen this." :mad: I wanted to reach through the television and strangle him.
 
Some scientists, unaware of Regression to the Mean apparently, and also apparently unaware of the difference between climate and weather, also predicted the year after Katrina would be horrible, but it was mild for hurricanes.
I think you need to distinguish between an individual scientist's conclusions and scientific consensus.

I'd be surprised if you found a scientific consensus predicting a single hurricane season before certain late indicators were measured.
 
Lots of myths about gay people have zero support from the scientific community:

- that gay men molest children are far higher rates than straight men.
- that AIDS is a gay disease.
- that gay people could simply choose to be attracted to opposite-sex partners if they weren't so busy being deviant and immoral.
- that same-gender partners are ineffective parents..
- that gay men have an average lifespan of 42 years.
- that no one could feel naturally gay unless something bad happened to them (molestation, overbearing mother / bad parenting).

Needless to say, pesky things like "facts" don't stop people from parroting these myths.
However, you bring up a black eye in the psychiatric science community. They've had some real doozies over the years. Gay was listed as a psych disorder until recently and mothers were blamed for autism.

In medicine we've had a few of our own but that begs the question, where do you divide pre-real science and once we got better at it? Surely H-pylori is a modern scientific discovery that changed long held beliefs about ulcers.

Then there are plate tectonics and evolution theory which were unknown in science until more recently.


I suppose I'm getting off topic with this historical perspective.
 
Add:
Ozone hole & CFCs...
And speaking of one of Midgley's Curses, we should mention the other: leaded gasoline.

Hamilton, Myers, and Needleman warned against it, but were shouted down. It took Patterson's investigations from a completely different direction to re-open the question, and even that was not enough.
 
When scientists give information and warnings based on that information, only to have politics disagrees, there seems to be a pattern:
  • Scientists say, "We believe this is true, and suggest that unless we take some sort of action, bad things will happen"
  • Politicians and people with vested interests stonewall any action. In effect, the scientists lose the first few rounds of the debate
  • Bad things happen much as the scientists said. In effect, science wins in the end.

I can think of the following where this scenario has played out:
  • Galileo's defense of the heliocentric model of the solar system
  • The collapse of the Newfoundland cod fishery
  • The last launch of the space shuttle Challenger
  • Global warming

Can anyone add to the list?

Nuclear energy vs. the wind/solar fad.

The alternatives to fossil fuels are very, very few that could promise the magnitude of energy required to meet our nation’s need. It is not as though plentiful alternatives exist, and one can be weighed against another …

The blunt fact is that there are the fossil fuels and there is nuclear.

Failure to recognize this, while focusing on options that do not and cannot have the magnitudes [of supply] required, will inevitably lead to increasingly dangerous energy shortages. Who then will answer? Will [it be] the environmental activist, who blocks real options, and then puts forth options that cannot meet the need?

- Dr. Charles Till, Former Associate Director, Argonne National Laboratory​

Our energy future as a technological civilization is simply nuclear or nothing. But good luck trying to explain that to those who have deluded themselves into believing that our energy hungry society can be run literally on sunshine and happy thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Nuclear energy vs. the wind/solar fad.

[snip]

Our energy future as a technological civilization is simply nuclear or nothing. But good luck trying to explain that to those who have deluded themselves into believing that our energy hungry society can be run literally on sunshine and happy thoughts.

Very interesting point. I'm not sure if science itself has decided that nuclear is the only way to go; the quote you gave us is one scientist's opinion.. After all, science also tells us that the sun dumps an enormous amount of energy into the Earth's systems every single day, but we lack the technology to capture, store, and distribute it.
 
I think the Ur Example of this would be the Challenger disaster.

Not in its outcome, as tragic as it was it doesn't compare to other disasters, but in how the mentality we're discussing we distilled down to it's most base level. High ranking NASA executives became so detached from reality that when presented with evidence that the booster's O-Rings might fail in cold weather, simply re-defined safety factors. They treated risk factors numbers like Enron treated their profit reports... they fudged the numbers as much as you possibly can short of just literally completely making the numbers ups.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Commission_Report

In one example, early tests resulted in some of the booster rocket's O-rings burning a third of the way through. These O-rings provided the gas-tight seal needed between the vertically stacked cylindrical sections that made up the solid fuel booster. NASA managers recorded this result as demonstrating that the O-rings had a "safety factor" of 3. Feynman incredulously explains the magnitude of this error: a "safety factor" refers to the practice of building an object to be capable of withstanding more force than it will conceivably be subjected. To paraphrase Feynman's example, if engineers built a bridge that could bear 3,000 pounds without any damage, even though it was never expected to bear more than 1,000 pounds in practice, the safety factor would be 3. If, however, a 1,000 pound truck drove across the bridge and it cracked at all, even just a third of the way through a beam, the safety factor is now zero: the bridge is defective.

Feynman was clearly disturbed by the fact that NASA management not only misunderstood this concept, but in fact inverted it by using a term denoting an extra level of safety to describe a part that was actually defective and unsafe. Feynman continued to investigate the lack of communication between NASA's management and its engineers, and was struck by management's claim that the risk of catastrophic malfunction on the shuttle was 1 in 105; i.e., 1 in 100,000. Feynman immediately realized that this claim was risible on its face; as he described, this assessment of risk would entail that NASA could expect to launch a shuttle every day for the next 274 years while suffering, on average, only one accident. Investigating the claim further, Feynman discovered that the 1 in 105 figure was stating what they claimed that the failure rate ought to be, given that it was a manned vehicle, and working backwards to generate the failure rate of components.
 
Last edited:
However, you bring up a black eye in the psychiatric science community. They've had some real doozies over the years. Gay was listed as a psych disorder until recently and mothers were blamed for autism.

Yes, but on the other hand, getting things about being gay wrong isn't really relevant, as "gay" is a recent social concept and hasn't been very scientific.

If memory serves, it was 1987 before the DSM got rid of homosexuality as a mental disorder, but gay as a social category really didn't exist as a social category before the 1960s.

In medicine we've had a few of our own but that begs the question, where do you divide pre-real science and once we got better at it? Surely H-pylori is a modern scientific discovery that changed long held beliefs about ulcers.

Then there are plate tectonics and evolution theory which were unknown in science until more recently.

I suppose I'm getting off topic with this historical perspective.

Probably. Most of the cases here the resistance wasn't political.

Actually, I find it problematic to group the ozone layer in with AGW.

In the case of the ozone layer, acceptance came quite quickly, and the worldwide ban on CFCs was put in place fairly easily, resulted in increased business opportunities, and worked. Though the ozone layer isn't healing as fast as was predicted, it is healing since we stopped making CFCs. Still there are conservatives who insist that people had nothing to do with it. Thinking about this now, the same basic pattern has applied to just about every environmental problem before AGW, from London fogs to smog in LA to the Cuyahoga river to DDT.

The case of AGW is quite different. The consensus spread through the scientific community pretty quickly. Political acceptance hasn't only been by idiot conservatives but also by ostensible skeptics, such as Michael Shermer and Penn and Teller. It's involved accusations that it isn't just wrong but a deliberate fraud made up by Euroweenies. Plus even the people who think it's real don't seem to have the slightest clue, promoting useless feel-good measures (Kyoto accords, anyone?) and with a significant demographic overlap with those who brought gas-guzzling back during the late 1990s. It's rather bizarre.
 

Back
Top Bottom