When morons breed...

[DanishDynamite]

DD

You'll find that Rolfe and I are both fluent in English, having been schooled exclusively in it since the age of 5 and using it every day for business. However it would appear that you have difficulties with understanding the proper meaning of concepts such as culpability and recklessness. I have assumed that this is merely a linguistic issue, but if it is a cognitive one then please do accept my apologies.

It matters little what you assume or what you have assumed. What matters, is your apparent inability to understand Justice. What is right and what is wrong. You seem only to know Law.

But back to the matter at hand. You apparently disagree with an important concept in the Western legal systems. Thousands upon thousands of judges, juries, lawyers, and legeslative bodies are wrong. But you - with no legal training - are right.

How peculiar.

Not at all. The concept of Justice changes as people are enlightened. Law changes as well, just much slower.

 

[Architect]

The test is what is right and what is wrong. The legal system of laws is simply an amputated attempt at enforcing this idea in Laws. Laws and ways of administering justice change as the culture inventing the laws and the ways of administering justice change.

Your response is very helpful, but not for the reasons you think.

Laws are essentially a benchmark, set by society, which define acceptable standards of conduct and behaviour. As that society changes, laws will change.

In this particular case, the laws used to support the prosecution are based on the premise that conduct can be so reckless as to lead to culpability. This is not an American concept, but rather one which is agreed thoughout the West. The UK, France, Germany, and Denmark (amongst others) all have adopted the same approach.

There is no movement that I am aware of seeking to challenge this premise. Indeed it would be quite remarkable if there were, as it would essentially remove all responsibility for deliterious actions unless there was malice involved.

Therefore it is clear that it is you, DD, who is out of kilter. You may not like the legal position, but that is not my problem. What I find amusing - and yes, I mean amusing - is that you have wholly failed to grasp the issues or (and this is perhaps more critical) present any attempt at a cogent defence of your position.

 

[Thanz]

Society sending two parents to jail for life because the parents failed to know enough about child-rearing to keep their first born child from dying, is not only unjust, it is cruel and unreasonable.

There is nothing cruel, unreasonable or unjust in society sending two people to jail because they starved their baby to death.

And, IMO, you are taking the position you are taking just for kicks and giggles because you have a twisted view of 'fun', or you have an equally twisted view of 'justice'. I haven't been able to figure out which one it is.

 

[Architect]

I'm kinda thinking that he's a wind-up merchant.

 

[HappyDance]

Society sending two parents to jail for life because the parents failed to know enough about child-rearing to keep their first born child from dying, is not only unjust, it is cruel and unreasonable.

You seem to be of the opinion that ignorance is a permanent and incurable condition.

Once this couple made a decision to bring a child into this world, they bore the responsibility to care for it. If they were unaware of how this was to be accomplished, they bore the responsibility to learn how to care for it. In this they failed. Miserably. Given that they were advised of their ignorance and still chose not to take steps to correct it, I'd even say that they failed criminally.

Once you get to be an adult, ignorance is not an excuse for anything. If an adult does not know the right thing to do in a situation, they have the duty to learn: ask someone, read a book, consult an expert. Unless both these parents suffer from some severe mental illness or disability, their ignorance excuses nothing at all. They had a child. They chose not to learn how to properly care for it. They bear the responsibility for its death. As a society we choose to punish those who cause the deaths of others (barring self-defense or unavoidable accident). I have no problem calling that justice.

L

 

[Alt+F4]

Society sending two parents to jail for life because the parents failed to know enough about child-rearing to keep their first born child from dying, is not only unjust, it is cruel and unreasonable.

A jury of their peers who saw and heard all the evidence agreed it was premediated murder. Why do you, who only has knowledge of this case based on a few media reports, think it's only neglect?

 

[Langis]

Being a vegetarian/vegan is a choice that a rational adult can make if he/she wants to. That's fine. We may be omnivores by design, but we're also animals and we rise above our baser instincts all the time.

However, a baby has not developed enough to make such a choice and understand its consequences. Again, we are omnivores by design. We need more than an ideology to stay fed. A child should not be forced to adopt vegan eating habits, regardless of how much conviction parents hold. It just isn't right.

NINJA EDIT - I eat meat all the time, btw. I have nothing against those who don't care for it. Unless they try to ignore the laws of nature. Then, it's just wrong.

 

[Architect]

You know, perhaps we should set up a poll just to show the glorious tumshie (hey DD, still working out what language that is?) that he's in a minority - of 1, probably?

 

[Architect]

By all accounts, they loved each other and they loved their first baby. They were simply ignorant, not knowing that a baby couldn't sustain life drinking vegan milk, as they themselves could.

Incidentally, you'll find that an adult could not survive in a healthy condition by consuming only vegan milk. But do feel free to give it a try. Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[EBU]

Maybe this is a good time to issue a reminder of what was said earlier and of what the prosecutor said in the trial. The child did not die because he was fed soy milk or other vegan foods. He died from starvation because he was not given enough food. Of any kind.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Your response is very helpful, but not for the reasons you think.

Laws are essentially a benchmark, set by society, which define acceptable standards of conduct and behaviour. As that society changes, laws will change.

In this particular case, the laws used to support the prosecution are based on the premise that conduct can be so reckless as to lead to culpability. This is not an American concept, but rather one which is agreed thoughout the West. The UK, France, Germany, and Denmark (amongst others) all have adopted the same approach.

Agreed.

There is no movement that I am aware of seeking to challenge this premise. Indeed it would be quite remarkable if there were, as it would essentially remove all responsibility for deliterious actions unless there was malice involved.

I too am aware of no "movement" in this regard.

Therefore it is clear that it is you, DD, who is out of kilter. You may not like the legal position, but that is not my problem. What I find amusing - and yes, I mean amusing - is that you have wholly failed to grasp the issues or (and this is perhaps more critical) present any attempt at a cogent defence of your position.

Yes, I'm out of kilter. Due to this travesty of Justice.

We've established this already. What's your point?

 

[skeptifem]

Incidentally, you'll find that an adult could not survive in a healthy condition by consuming only vegan milk. But do feel free to give it a try. Let us know how it works out for you.

lol!

but if someone loves their kids i would think they would worry about the kids health and uh actually look into how to take care of it.

 

[DanishDynamite]

There is nothing cruel, unreasonable or unjust in society sending two people to jail because they starved their baby to death.

I agree. They should be made to learn a lesson about being so adverse to knowing real important stuff.

But sending them to jail for life?

I simply don't find this reasonable in any way.

They made a mistake. God knows, we all make mistakes. But they didn't do it out of malice! You are not willing to excuse a person from making a mistake? What sort of John Wayne, black-and-white, no-empathy monster are you?!!

And, IMO, you are taking the position you are taking just for kicks and giggles because you have a twisted view of 'fun', or you have an equally twisted view of 'justice'. I haven't been able to figure out which one it is.

No.

 

[DanishDynamite]

I'm kinda thinking that he's a wind-up merchant.

I'm kindda thinking you are too.

 

[gtc]

Maybe this is a good time to issue a reminder of what was said earlier and of what the prosecutor said in the trial. The child did not die because he was fed soy milk or other vegan foods. He died from starvation because he was not given enough food. Of any kind.

I've said it twice. It doesn't seem to have registered yet.

They had warning that their baby was seriously unwell.

They had warning that children need more than just soy milk (Although it would not have killed the child, it would have injured the child's health)

And yet they let their child starve to death, never seeking medical help.

This was obviously enough to convince the jury of the parents guilt.

All that I would like to know is whether the jury found that the parents actions were so reckless that it amounted to murder or whether the jury found that the parents deliberately starved their child to death.

They made a mistake.

How do you know it was a mistake. They also made a whole series of mistakes. For starters, they made mistakes every time they fed the child and every time they ere warned about seeking medical help.

But they didn't do it out of malice!

How do you know?

 

[DanishDynamite]

You seem to be of the opinion that ignorance is a permanent and incurable condition.

Not at all.

Once this couple made a decision to bring a child into this world, they bore the responsibility to care for it. If they were unaware of how this was to be accomplished, they bore the responsibility to learn how to care for it. In this they failed. Miserably. Given that they were advised of their ignorance and still chose not to take steps to correct it, I'd even say that they failed criminally.

Balloney. Any two humans, male+female, can bring a child into this world. A hundred years ago they could do so in a log cabin somewhere, and if they diddn't know enough to keep their child alive, it would die. End of story. Grieving, they would try again.

Nowadays, having a child by yourself in pure freedom, is almost not possible.

Once you get to be an adult, ignorance is not an excuse for anything. If an adult does not know the right thing to do in a situation, they have the duty to learn: ask someone, read a book, consult an expert. Unless both these parents suffer from some severe mental illness or disability, their ignorance excuses nothing at all. They had a child. They chose not to learn how to properly care for it. They bear the responsibility for its death. As a society we choose to punish those who cause the deaths of others (barring self-defense or unavoidable accident). I have no problem calling that justice.

L

I disagree completely.

 

[DanishDynamite]

A jury of their peers who saw and heard all the evidence agreed it was premediated murder. Why do you, who only has knowledge of this case based on a few media reports, think it's only neglect?

If there is more to the story, I want to hear it.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Being a vegetarian/vegan is a choice that a rational adult can make if he/she wants to. That's fine. We may be omnivores by design, but we're also animals and we rise above our baser instincts all the time.

However, a baby has not developed enough to make such a choice and understand its consequences. Again, we are omnivores by design. We need more than an ideology to stay fed. A child should not be forced to adopt vegan eating habits, regardless of how much conviction parents hold. It just isn't right.

NINJA EDIT - I eat meat all the time, btw. I have nothing against those who don't care for it. Unless they try to ignore the laws of nature. Then, it's just wrong.

A child doesn't need to make a choice. It's parents make it for them. In this case, the parents made the wrong decision.

Should this one wrong decision be punishable by life imprisonment?

 

[DanishDynamite]

You know, perhaps we should set up a poll just to show the glorious tumshie (hey DD, still working out what language that is?) that he's in a minority - of 1, probably?

Hey, perhaps your snipping doesn't change the fact of No Justice?

 

[DanishDynamite]

Incidentally, you'll find that an adult could not survive in a healthy condition by consuming only vegan milk. But do feel free to give it a try. Let us know how it works out for you.

Incidentally, that wasn't my point. Incidentally, you knew that.