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When morons breed...

Lonewulf said:
Not really...

I'm surprised. What lead you to this conclusion?
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An admittedly casual skimming of this thread.

Don't recall reading anything saying, "Ugh - I hate the taste of meat and anything that has meat in it or which used meat or anything animal in the processing."

I've seen several posts from people saying they can't eat meat, i.e., they're vegan for health reasons. And I've seen some claiming it's flat-out healthier for everyone, not just for meat-intolerant people.

The only non-health related justification I've seen is the ethical one that it's wrong to kill animals to eat them, but I don't see that being pushed much here.

Anyway, I shall continue to be an omnivore, and have no reason to object to anyone else's desire to be herbivorous, any more than I object to someone else's desire to be Catholic or Canadian.

But I think the OP establishes pretty conclusively that there are some people, regardless of their dietary preferences, who are so ignorant that they shouldn't breed.
 
Rolfe said:
Just wondering, if veganasm is so satisfying, why all the effort to make ersatz copies of carnivore dishes? Why look for vegetarian gravy at all?

Rolfe.
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Since I'm the one who brought up gravy, I'd like to point out that in our case, vegetarianism (not veganism) was a choice based on my wife and daughter's allergies to animal proteins. Hence, the effort to copy carnivore dishes.
 
I have heard one argument for an omnivorous diet based on the idea that it is more "natural" because, without nutritionally-fortified foods and/or supplements, vegans would become vitamin-B12-deficient.

Curious about folks' thoughts on that (not that I had to ask for them, I realize ;)).
 
BPSCG said:
An admittedly casual skimming of this thread.

Don't recall reading anything saying, "Ugh - I hate the taste of meat and anything that has meat in it or which used meat or anything animal in the processing."

I've seen several posts from people saying they can't eat meat, i.e., they're vegan for health reasons. And I've seen some claiming it's flat-out healthier for everyone, not just for meat-intolerant people.
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But there are those that make lifestyle choices not just over taste or health. Some have moral concerns.

The only non-health related justification I've seen is the ethical one that it's wrong to kill animals to eat them, but I don't see that being pushed much here.
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Well, no, not on this thread. If you meant the main argument in this thread, then yes, you are right. You said "ultimately", and I made the assumption that you were not talking about just this thread; I see I was mistaken in my analysis.

Though there's also environmental health being discussed, which is a bit different than personal health; but regardless, moral concerns are not being cited in this thread as a reason to "go vegan".

Anyway, I shall continue to be an omnivore, and have no reason to object to anyone else's desire to be herbivorous, any more than I object to someone else's desire to be Catholic or Canadian.
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Cool stuff, cool stuff.

But I think the OP establishes pretty conclusively that there are some people, regardless of their dietary preferences, who are so ignorant that they shouldn't breed.
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Agreed.

Though I'm dubious as to something: Is this "brand" of "stupidity" really genetic? Or is it more a social stupidity? I ask this because I keep hearing from people on this forum that we should somehow control breeding to control "stupidity". But I'm wondering if it's really "genetics" that is the cause of this brand of negligence, or if nurture (or lack thereof) has any effect?

Regardless, the parents would have been bad parents, so the overall point is the same, they shouldn't breed.

Katana said:
I have heard one argument for an omnivorous diet based on the idea that it is more "natural" because, without nutritionally-fortified foods and/or supplements, vegans would become vitamin-B12-deficient.

Curious about folks' thoughts on that.
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From some quick searching: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals.
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Also, some people talked about hating the taste of soy milk. I tried soy (regular) milk, and it tasted like crap. But at the same time, different brands have different tastes. Anyways, I don't bother with soy milk personally, but I have to say that chocolate soy milk is pretty damn good.

My HEB brand Chocolate Soymilk is calcium enriched (I really don't drink regular milk too often, honestly) and lactose free (for those that are intolerant).

Vitamins include:

Vitamin A (10%), Calcium (30%), Iron (8%), Vitamin D (30%), Riboflavin (B2) (30%), Folate (6%), Vitamin B12 (50%), and Zinc (4%)

Also, 5 grams of protein. Lots of sugar, though...

The soybeans were not genetically engineered. Which is too bad, 'cause I like gengineering. :)

Anyways, I didn't really know about this. I just looked at the carton right now, for this post, just to see if it had B12. It did, and I'm honestly somewhat surprised. I'm not too nutritionally-aware. I'm not vegetarian nor vegan, though as I said before, I've heard some compelling arguments for going it.
 
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Lonewulf said:
Though I'm dubious as to something: Is this "brand" of "stupidity" really genetic? Or is it more a social stupidity?
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Who knows? I'm going to hazard a guess that these people weren't rocket scientists. If you're asking if they're actually stupid - i.e., IQ in the 80 range frequented by Hollywood types* - as opposed to being simply pig-ignorant, I don't know.
I ask this because I keep hearing from people on this forum that we should somehow control breeding to control "stupidity".
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Really? I thought the Third Reich was gone.

* Had to get a slap in at Hollywood - I hadn't said anything insulting about actors all day and I was just feeling out of sorts as a result... :boggled:
 
volatile said:
Killing animals for food isn't unethical. I'm not gonna suggest a subsistance farmer go vegan, but killing animals for food when you have easily available alternatives that are as tasty and nutritious and cheap is unethical, in my opinion. In my opinion, killing an animal for fun is unethical, and when you're killing one for food just because you prefer that taste to some other food source, the line starts blurring. For me.
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That’s your privilege of cause. It is, as I said really a matter of opinion..

volatile said:
You're exactly right, of course. Noone's perfect. But the thing is, veganism is easy. It takes me no more effort to pick up a block of tofu from the supermarket than it does a pork chop. When I thought about my diet in a critical way, I realised that the only reason I was omnivorous was because I was raised that way. So I stopped, and, as I said, I haven't been give a critically-thought-out reason since as to why I should choose that pork chop.

It does taste good, I love(d) steak, but so does a beancurd stirfry or a lentil curry or a baked squash. Veganism has no downsides at all for me, as far as I can tell.
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It has a downside for you; you're admitting that you like the taste of meat. Now far from me to try to dictate what choices you make, but pretending that this is not a legitimate downside for a skeptic is absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that the ideal for you is the total subjugation of all enjoyment and structure you life exclusively around health and environmental concerns? Because that is the logical consequence of what you're saying.
 
BPSCG said:
Really? I thought the Third Reich was gone.
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I may be misinterpreting certain individuals, but...

Licenses to breed -- Check.
Talking about the evolutionary superiority of a baby starving to death under parent's negligence -- Check.

Both of these things have been lauded in this thread alone, and there are other threads that this subject has come up.

Including some people that think that stupidity (alone) should carry a death sentence, probably for a "gene pool" argument. Though they don't really sound too serious on that, at least, not serious to try to get an amendment passed or anything. ;)

In fact, genetics comes up a lot...

Kerberos said:
It has a downside for you; you're admitting that you like the taste of meat. Now far from me to try to dictate what choices you make, but pretending that this is not a legitimate downside for a skeptic is absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that the ideal for you is the total subjugation of all enjoyment and structure you life exclusively around health and environmental concerns? Because that is the logical consequence of what you're saying.
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And what's the reverse logical consequence?

If that is the case, then we can all crawl into a "happiness box", and live out the rest of our short lives as fat fleshbags with no use to the world, fed through tubes while our brains have our every pleasure and fantasy pumped into them constantly, giving us an eternity of pleasure in the few years our bodies have to live before the heart gives out...




(What? It's the same kind of argument you made. I'm just rolling with the punches.)

Personally, I'm all for compromise. I'd like to have the environment, the health, and the taste all rolled into one, with none of the guilt. I have thought on ways for that to become a reality. Though certain individuals are so set on their ways, and have dug themselves into their hole so deep that they can't think of doing anything any other way. (See: Thaiboxerken on the subject).

Oh, and one more thing: Some people really don't live their lives around "It tastes good". They actually can survive changing their diets a bit... well, okay, a lot. I don't quite see the superiority of your position over Volatile's.
 
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Kerberos said:
It has a downside for you; you're admitting that you like the taste of meat. Now far from me to try to dictate what choices you make, but pretending that this is not a legitimate downside for a skeptic is absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that the ideal for you is the total subjugation of all enjoyment and structure you life exclusively around health and environmental concerns? Because that is the logical consequence of what you're saying.
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"total subjugation" is something of a strawman....let's try a similar tactic back....

Is your argument that irrespective of the reasons behind your decision to eat meat, the fact that it makes you feel good is an important consideration in that decision's rationality? Are you seriously suggesting that the ideal for you is a complete subjugation of rationality and a life structured solely upon that which feels good? Because that is the logical conclusion of what you're saying....

build a strawman, knock it down :)
 
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andyandy said:
"total subjugation" appears something of a strawman....so let's try a similar tactic back....

Is your argument that irrespective of the reasons behind your decision to eat meat, the fact that it makes you feel good is an important consideration in that decision's rationality? Are you seriously suggesting that the ideal for you is a complete subjugation of rationality and a life structured solely upon that which feels good? Because that is the logical conclusion of what you're saying....

build a strawman, knock it down :rolleyes:
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Jinx!






Out of curiosity, you used the term "feel good"... this makes me wonder: Is "feeling good" entirely a matter of physical enjoyment (I.E., the taste of meat), and not at all a mental enjoyment? Can I "feel good" about helping an old lady across the street, or donating to an orphanage?

What if, as a result of my vegan lifestyle, I got more energy, less weight on my body (which would result in less back pain for my future; I have a big pot belly that I really need to get rid of, and I'm still only 22... it's only going to be bad for me later on in life), AND had mental happiness over helping the environment and knowing that my meals did not come from killed animals?

I'd say that it's still tempting to go vegan even with the "feel good" argument. And hell, vegan recipes for good taste aren't impossible to make; in fact, they're quite easy if you know what you're doing.
 
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Lonewulf said:
Jinx!
.
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oi! Stop stealing my arguments and posting them before me! :D

now jinx has been declared you can hit me everytime i speak [arms and legs only - not too hard], until someone says my name 3 times, or until i get a double jinx back...at least those are the british rules - i don't know the international ones :)
 
andyandy said:
oi! Stop stealing my arguments and posting them before me! :D

now jinx has been declared you can hit me everytime i speak [arms and legs only - not too hard], until someone says my name 3 times, or until i get a double jinx back...at least those are the british rules - i don't know the international ones :)
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Wow, that's harsh! In the U.S., you would just owe him a Coke...
 
andyandy said:
oi! Stop stealing my arguments and posting them before me! :D

now jinx has been declared you can hit me everytime i speak [arms and legs only - not too hard], until someone says my name 3 times, or until i get a double jinx back...at least those are the british rules - i don't know the international ones :)
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Well, you did ask for it. And, you "talked".



Z said:
Wow, that's harsh! In the U.S., you would just owe him a Coke...
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Maybe where you grew up, but certainly not where I did...
 
As far as I can see here, "It tastes good" trumps all else. That just doesn't seem like a very sceptical position from where I'm sitting.
 
Meat is an extremely efficient source of lean protein, like turkey and chicken breast or various types of fish. I can see why athletes would opt to eat meat for that reason.
 
nails3jesus0 said:
Meat is an extremely efficient source of lean protein, like turkey and chicken breast or various types of fish. I can see why athletes would opt to eat meat for that reason.
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Soybeans are a good source of protein, too.

Recently I boiled up some soybeans and ate 'em. They're not too bad. I may consider putting them in some kind of dish, or soup...

Other sources of protein:

PROTEIN IN LEGUMES: Garbanzo beans, Kidney beans, Lentils, Lima beans, Navy beans, Soybeans, Split peas

PROTEIN IN GRAINS: Barley, Brown rice, Buckwheat, Millet, Oatmeal, Rye, Wheat germ, Wheat, hard red, Wild rice

VEGETABLE PROTEIN: Artichokes, Beets, Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Cucumbers, Eggplant, Green peas, Green pepper, Kale, Lettuce, Mushrooms, Mustard green, Onions, Potatoes, Spinach, Tomatoes, Turnip greens, Watercress, Yams, Zucchini

PROTEIN IN FRUITS: Apple, Banana, Cantaloupe, Grape, Grapefruit, Honeydew melon, Orange, Papaya, Peach, Pear, Pineapple, Strawberry, Tangerine, Watermelon

PROTEIN IN NUTS AND SEEDS: Almonds, Cashews, Filberts, Hemp Seeds, Peanuts, Pumpkin seeds, Sesame seeds, Sunflower seeds, Walnuts (black)

(from http://www.happycow.net/vegetarian_protein.html)

Shoot, stuff I eat for snacks have good protein. Go fig.

Also:

Additionally, superior green foods provide an excellent source of protein (70% in some cases). More information at: super green foods
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http://www.happycow.net/health-sf_supergreens.html
 
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volatile said:
If everyone went vegan there'd obviously be an economic impact on farmers, but I don't see that as convincing either - inventng the car had an economic impact on horse-and-cart builders, but that's not a reason not to buy a car.
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If everyone went vegan, then farmers would produce black-market beef for the dissident.
 
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