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Go to this link and watch the video of a person actually being waterboarded. This is part of an ABC outing of to CIA contractors that designed the program. Putting aside the danger ABC placed these men in, there is no sign of ANY distress exhibited by the subject being waterboarded and the pour lasted at least 15 seconds. That is the average pour time used on KSM.
Go to this link and watch the video of a person actually being waterboarded. This is part of an ABC outing of to CIA contractors that designed the program. Putting aside the danger ABC placed these men in, there is no sign of ANY distress exhibited by the subject being waterboarded and the pour lasted at least 15 seconds. That is the average pour time used on KSM.
Go to this link and watch the video of a person actually being waterboarded. This is part of an ABC outing of to CIA contractors that designed the program. Putting aside the danger ABC placed these men in, there is no sign of ANY distress exhibited by the subject being waterboarded and the pour lasted at least 15 seconds. That is the average pour time used on KSM.
Oh, okay, I apologize then. I didn't realize that there was no distress involved at all. Boy, that sure sounds effective! A form of interrogation that's supposed to be based around distress that gives no distress to the interrogated prisoner whatsoever...
We just want to simulate drowning him because it's FUN and should make DISNEY LAND rides with it! Yay!
The way I learned it in Civics class (and the way it's worded in at least several of those Amendments) is that the Bill of Rights is mostly a limit on the authority of the government. (You know--all that Lockian stuff about natural rights?)
This is totally correct. However, in an active war, the rules are much different. Warfare, by its very nature, demands some pretty horrific acts; acts which would be grossly unconstitutional if perpetrated against civilians.
Case in point, when the allies first arrived in Berlin, 1945, I doubt they got search warrants before entering various NAZI buildings. Should the pilot of a zero have been allowed to call his lawyer before being shot down?
This is one of the greatest debates of the 21st Century: what is a terrorist? Is a terrorist a civilian, worthy of due process? Or is a terrorist a member of an opposing army? Which rules should apply: civilian criminal law, or International law, i.e. war crimes/Geneva/UN resolutions, etc?
In either event, torture is explicitly illegal. But I think most can agree that the laws governing International war, and those governing civilian crime, are two entirely different animals- and with good reason.
My opinion: terrorists are not uniformed members of an opposing army. The perpetrators of 9/11 should be dealt with the same way Timothy McVeigh was- through the due process of law. As Ron Paul is fond of saying- terrorism is a tactic; how can you fight a war against a tactic? The key to preventing terrorism is a well-equipped and well-trained police force, with plenty of oversight to keep everything on the up-and-up. Sadly, there are times when war must be used as a measure of last resort. But expecting our wonderful military to police foreign nations is not only placing an incredible and unfair burden on them, it is perverting their very purpose.
I was always brought up to think I was on the same side as the good guys
You might remember them. They collectivly fought WW2 againsts enemies who thought nothing of toture as a way to extract information. Away to exterminate people they simply didn't like
They fought the Cold War - Against a people we were warned about through cautionary tales such as 1984. People who would use torture to manipulate, change, extract lies as a way to the truth
Suddenly I wonder what happened to the good guys. I like being on their team. I like not lowering myself to bad guys level. I like being able to hold my head up and say "We are better than that"
Go to this link and watch the video of a person actually being waterboarded. This is part of an ABC outing of to CIA contractors that designed the program. Putting aside the danger ABC placed these men in, there is no sign of ANY distress exhibited by the subject being waterboarded and the pour lasted at least 15 seconds. That is the average pour time used on KSM.
"There is a strong utilitarian argument against torture; namely, that there is simply no scientific evidence supporting its effectiveness.
The lack of scientific basis for the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation techniques is summarized in a 2006 Intelligence Science Board report titled "EDUCING INFORMATION, Interrogation: Science and Art, Foundations for the Future". The report is currently hosted in the FAS website."
"There is a strong utilitarian argument against torture; namely, that there is simply no scientific evidence supporting its effectiveness.
The lack of scientific basis for the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation techniques is summarized in a 2006 Intelligence Science Board report titled "EDUCING INFORMATION, Interrogation: Science and Art, Foundations for the Future". The report is currently hosted in the FAS website."
This is totally correct. However, in an active war, the rules are much different. Warfare, by its very nature, demands some pretty horrific acts; acts which would be grossly unconstitutional if perpetrated against civilians.
And again, this is the exact kind of thinking that was addressed in this part (Part I Article 2.2) of the Convention Against Torture:
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
The problem is, you're speaking of an undeclared, unending "war on terror" where prisoners are not afforded the rights of prisoners of war. You see how tenuous this justification for suspending the very rights that constitute our country is?
That sort of thinking is why we must prohibit torture altogether in all cases. It's just too easy to say that this is the one rare exception when it's justified.
But I think most can agree that the laws governing International war, and those governing civilian crime, are two entirely different animals- and with good reason.
My opinion: terrorists are not uniformed members of an opposing army. The perpetrators of 9/11 should be dealt with the same way Timothy McVeigh was- through the due process of law.
I agree with this. It's something of a broader topic than this thread, but yes, I think all prisoners deserve due process. The Geneva Conventions were meant to establish rock-bottom minimum standards. This business of saying we (agents of our government) can arrest and hold someone without charges indefinitely (and there is no state of war that will end at any specific time-- short of the eradication of "evil" from the face of the Earth--which would trigger the release of prisoners of war) goes against everything we stand for.
Through due process of law...but not in civilian court. At least imo. The military tribunals are fine with me but the endless stalling is an insult to both the inmates and their alleged victims. Also I think we had a decent discussion going in another thread about the severe mental torture issue. I was gone for a few days so that kind of died out.
I respectfully disagree. I base that opinion on stories such as this one.
A US military prosecutor at Guantanamo Bay has resigned over ethical disputes with his superiors, claiming they suppressed evidence that could help clear a young Afghan detainee of alleged war crimes. [...] The disclosure triggered new attacks on the integrity of the US military tribunal system, which has faced accusations from other insiders of ethical breaches and political interference.
Go to this link and watch the video of a person actually being waterboarded. This is part of an ABC outing of to CIA contractors that designed the program.
It is hard for me to feel sympathy for 2 jokers who looted taxpayers to the tune of $1,000 /day, despite having no relevant experience. And shame on the CIA for actually paying these clowns.
there is no sign of ANY distress exhibited by the subject being waterboarded and the pour lasted at least 15 seconds. That is the average pour time used on KSM.
But, as the story points out, these men lack the proper credentials to gauge whether or not the tactic is safe. That's the whole scandal here- these jokers just went with it, despite their complete lack of qualification.
Did you actually read this story? It is far more damning of waterboarding and torture than anything I have added here myself.
It is hard for me to feel sympathy for 2 jokers who looted taxpayers to the tune of $1,000 /day, despite having no relevant experience. And shame on the CIA for actually paying these clowns.
But, as the story points out, these men lack the proper credentials to gauge whether or not the tactic is safe. That's the whole scandal here- these jokers just went with it, despite their complete lack of qualification.
Did you actually read this story? It is far more damning of waterboarding and torture than anything I have added here myself.
I read the story and find it to be bordering on treason. My point in providing the link is that the person being waterboarded was not being tortured in the least. As to "these 2 jokers" I wonder if you felt the same about Valerie Plame who was at best a desk jockey but her "outing" created calls for the heads of the entire Bush administration. You may have no sympathy for these two men BUT that makes you no different than those that have sympathy for 3 leaders of Al Qaeda that were "tortured" the same way a kid is "tortured in a YMCA swimming class.
Sorry to hurt your feelings but the point was that "torture" DOES work. If it didn't then loan sharks would be out of business. I hate to burst your bubble but in war "we" have been complete barbarians and rightfully so. There is only one objective in war and that is to be more ruthless and bloodthirsty than the enemy. Any other stance means defeat.
I read the story and find it to be bordering on treason. My point in providing the link is that the person being waterboarded was not being tortured in the least.
And, as the story points out, these men hold no relevant credentials. They are not doctors. They are in no position to make that determination.
The video contains a short segment of a pour; but I'm not sure why you consider this evidence of anything. For example:
Is this clip evidence of torture, or just one person's opinion? The same applies to the clip you provided.
I think we will agree: the experience is subjective, and opinions vary.
As to "these 2 jokers" I wonder if you felt the same about Valerie Plame who was at best a desk jockey but her "outing" created calls for the heads of the entire Bush administration.
Friend, you have me all wrong. I'm as right-wing as they come. But Valerie Plame was an actual CIA employee; these men are private salesman who sold our government a technique they had no business selling. If they didn't want to assume that risk, they can choose to deal with other clients. An under-cover CIA agent has no such option.
You may have no sympathy for these two men BUT that makes you no different than those that have sympathy for 3 leaders of Al Qaeda that were "tortured" the same way a kid is "tortured in a YMCA swimming class.
Why should I have sympathy? They earned $1000 /day, despite a total lack of qualifications, and have faced no consequences besides some brief embarassment. I wish no harm on them, but I have no sympathy either. They are not undercover spooks, as you seem to believe.
And because I lack sympathy for some private contractors, this means I have sympathy for terror suspects? I don't follow.
This is bigger than partisanship, friend. I hope you will at least consider what I have to say.
Sorry to hurt your feelings but the point was that "torture" DOES work. If it didn't then loan sharks would be out of business. I hate to burst your bubble but in war "we" have been complete barbarians and rightfully so. There is only one objective in war and that is to be more ruthless and bloodthirsty than the enemy. Any other stance means defeat.
My grandfathers helped to defeat the AXIS powers of WWII, and they did it without resorting to torture. I reject this argument as historically ignorant.
Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding. [...] "I would also hope that [you] would not want to be associated with a technique which was invented in the Spanish Inquisition, was used by Pol Pot in one of the great eras of genocide in history and is being used on Burmese monks as we speak," the Arizona senator said. "America is a better nation than that."
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