When is Lying Justified?

[Kaylee]

Lying does not need to be justified, it's pretty harmless by itself. If I lied and said I was the Supreme High Chancellor of Mars, who would care?

It's only when lying is used for deception that trouble begins.

Deception and lying are two very different things. Sure, you can deceive people with lies, but you can also deceive without lying and lie without decieving.

What's the difference? Dictionary.com defines lying as:

noun
1.
the telling of lies, or false statements; untruthfulness: From boyhood, he has never been good at lying. Synonyms: falsehood, falsity, mendacity, prevarication. Antonyms: truth, veracity.

adjective
2.
telling or containing lies; deliberately untruthful; deceitful; false: a lying report. Synonyms: deceptive, misleading, mendacious, fallacious; sham, counterfeit. Antonyms: true, candid, actual, correct, accurate, trustworthy.

Lies are false statements intended to deceive. You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

Or entertaining. What is a work of fiction but an elaborate lie created with the intent to entertain rather than deceive?

Fiction is an imaginary piece of work intended to entertain, not deceive.

Lying and deception are synonymous.

I grant you that many people do lie because they want to be entertaining -- that is often their sole motive. But my experience is that they still get upset when they are called upon it, no matter how gently or no matter if you even try to give them an out and pretend that it was an open joke all along.

 

[Kaylee]

Lying isn't wrong, it's stupid.

Yes it is! Now you have to remember the lie you told, plus ten more lies to back it up!
I really don't lie, except on the humor thread! I'm 55 years old, I don't have much, ( except, my word. ) If I say something, in the circles I run in, then it is so. If I owe someone 2 dollars, they forget, but I don't.
I think, lying is only justified, when you are trying not to hurt people's feelings, with lesser intelligence! Most of your closer friends are too smart for that anyway! You know, you can only skirt the issue, or change the subject so many times!
I guess the next time I ask the other half, ( The Man ) a question, I'm really gonna have to think about his answer!

Yes, some people think lying is stupid. But many others over the ages have not. And that was undoubtedly unfortunate for many other people.

In this thread we have barely touched the surface of lying and how people have justified it over the ages. We have left out entire categories of lies and their justifications including how people lied to protect their professional peers, political lies, lies told in wartime to ones own people, the topic of truthfulness between parents and children, medical lies, lies told while conducting research, lies told to employees, how certain classes of people centuries ago thought it was their right to lie to people in lower classes, and I could go on.

The people who believed that certain types of lies are justified probably didn't think lies were stupid.
There are still people who believe that. To the extent that they have influence over others and over society -- we all have to deal with the effects of their lies regardless of our personal beliefs and behavior.

 

[moebob]

O.K. That is a given nowadays, driving and tickets. Never admit to anything, ect;
I feel that's exceptable.

 

[LashL]

Everybody lies.

[/House]

 

[Kaylee]

In the game of liars poker doubting each other (and yourself) is the norm. A society of liars (at least in my experience) is no more of a problem than one that is predominantly truthful. People are quite flexible in that regard. So the focus and determination goes to the objective evidence, even in a game of liars poker. Just as in a predominantly truthful society a liar might cause difficulties, in a society of liars one who tells the truth might cause the same difficulties. So the doubt might be better placed in that people will meet your expectations of them or just doubt your expectations of them, that way your doubts might serve you better in either case.

Hmm. I would think that a society that is predominately truthful would be, on the whole, a happier one to live in and more successful than a society that is predominately deceitful.

I don't think we can extrapolate from one game or even from the general behavior of one or two professions that an entire society who behaved that way (deceitfully) would be successful, and certainly not optimally successful.

Think about how much time, energy and resources would be lost if people doublechecked and verified each other, constantly, on every little detail.

Also, Bok points out, that ironically liars can't do what they need to do unless most of the people they deal with are honest with them. Liars are the first to complain when lied to.

Bok believes that society needs veracity to function. That is one of the assertions that she repeatedly uses to tear down some of the justifications used for lying.

Is this the Bok you are referring to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Bok

That is the author's daughter. The author is Sissela_Bok^WP, also listed in Wiki.

The considerations you have cited sound quite intriguing, do you have any links or references that we might explore?

Then you would probably really like her books. I read two of them, and I intend to read some of her others.

I see the Wiki article has some links to some interviews with her, at the end of the article.

I haven't looked at the links yet though, so I don't know how it compares to what she said in her book.

It's time for me to say good night to the forum , and tomorrow's a busy day -- but I'll try to check those links out by the end of the week.

An effective lie often requires at least some truth, ironic as that is.

Yes, makes it more believable.

 

[The Man]

Huh?

I was lying in the first two cases. The third is basically your question.

Yes, I think that often people will lie about what their "justification" is. For example, they may assert that what they are doing is beneficial for their family -- but it can actually be the case that they are doing what is best for them and they are lying about that to others.

Or just to themselves. A lie is fundamentally an attempt to deceive. Whether that be making a statement I know to be false or simply disregarding the truth that I do know. If I am simply stating what I believe to be true but is in fact false, I'm not lying, I'm simply mistaken. Lying to ones self is the easiest thing to do as that is where we are most proficient at it. We know just what to say to be convincing and we want to be convinced that it is the truth. Wanting to believe we have some objective justification for our actions (or lack thereof) is not immune to that predilection. That we (as individuals) are not singular constructs but a conglomeration of often competing impulses only exacerbates that situation. We must repress some and reinforce others or we would not be able to function. As that is how our brains function (neurologically) some impulses get repressed before we are even aware of them. So the question of 'did I do it for the benefit of the family or just for myself?' is one we can only ask ourselves. When those goals (family vs. yourself) are opposing the question can be easy to answer truthfully. When those goals are perceived as mutual, both the question and the doubt (if any) is something that we must either live with or repress, if we are aware of it.

 

[moebob]

Everybody lies.

[/House]

Yes to a certain extent, your right! A person passes you in the hallway at work, "Hey, how are you doing today?" You answer, " Great! And you? " Even though the truth is, You would really like to smack the living crap out of your boss at that moment!
You are right, everybody lies. How you choose to act about it, makes more difference, than the lie itself. I guess that shows more about what you are made of.

 

[Kaylee]

For many people, especially politicians, communication has no moral value, it is simply a means to attempt to achieve some objective. When people have an objective, they will say anything whatever might promote the objective, regardless of the truthfulness of the said things. Considering the risk of getting caught of lying of course, which would have an adverse effect on reaching the objective.

The press officer of US Army will say to people anything whatsoever might promote the objectives of the US Army, truthfulness of the information is no factor there.

Bok discusses politics and lies also. When I come back to the forum in a few days I'll try to recall some of the more interestng comments she had to say about that.

Everybody lies.

[/House]

That is one strange character. He says everyone lies, but he relies on the lab results and he relies on his team's work. He relies on Cuddy and Wilson to be dependable and to be the "straight men" to his antics.

But ... "everyone lies."

Maybe he's lying about everyone lying? Like "The Man" just posted -- "I'm lying even when I'm lying."

 

[slingblade]

So ehchks and Tricky are going for the Utilitarian Philosophy about Truth and Lying. Slingblade, I'm including you also under this blanket philosophy because, assuming there are no other factors to consider, if lying would prevent unnecc. harm -- than on can argue that the greater good is served by lying.

I'd agree, though I'd say it's probably not a common occurrence. But yes, the greater good can sometimes be served by a lie.

"Have you seen this runaway slave?" or "Are your neighbors hiding any Jews?" being patently obvious and extreme examples, but that sort of thing, yes.

And yes, the law of unintended consequences applies. We might think it will spare Bobby unnecessary harm to tell him Rover just ran away, rather than was hit by a car and died while Bobby was at school, but this lie could end up causing harm in other ways. And it doesn't help Bobby learn to deal with death, either.

 

[Brian-M]

What's the difference?

I'm making the distinction here between deliberately making a false statement and attempting to lead someone into believing a falsehood.

The exact definition for lie will vary depending on your source, but the better dictionaries will provide several definitions. (Example.) Even the quote you gave provided two different definitions for lie, the first of which makes no mention of deception.

The simpler definition for lie is a deliberate untruth, which is the definition I'm using for the purpose of distinguishing a lie from a deception.

In a conversation about lying, the distinction between lies intended to deceive and lies not intended to deceive is important, even if the distinction is not usually made in everyday conversation. That's why I brought it up, to highlight this point.

 

[moebob]

Yes, "House" is one strange character! He relies on the lab results, because it's science, and can be proven. His team, is doing the work, to disprove the straws, that are being grasped at, and reminding him of anything that he may have bulldozed over while looking for something more complicated.
Wilson is the cancer specialist, who also backs Cuddy, with the politics! Win, Win!
"Everyone lies." Maybe not, maybe they just leave things out, that they don't think are important, but really are. Sometimes it's all in how you look at things, where is your view coming from?

 

[Mr. Scott]

Don't trust your feelings

It's wrong when you feel it is .

No, no no, no, don't be a member of that "your feelings are (almost) always right" cult! Feelings are nothing but feelings. E.g. if you are accustom to lying compusively, it will feel fine to lie again and feel wrong to tell the truth.

Lying is an attempt to assert control ... to empower yourself and un-empower who you lie to. The kid who tries to claim his dog ate his homework is trying to take control away from the teacher.

Lying is an assertion of power, and a compensation for powerlessness.

It is a social misstep to assert deceptive control over peers you respect.

A statement or act intended to cause someone to believe something that is not true is not different from plain lying. Lying without "technically" lying is still lying. E.g. if someone asks me, "did you sleep with her" and I did, but answer, "she's not attractive to me," I've attempted a lie.

 

[moebob]

O.K. slingblade, I give you that one too, I would lie to save a human life, like the slave or the jew, without a second thought.
But Bobby, would have to deal with the fact that his dog got hit by a car, while he was at school. I would dig a hole and wait for him to come home, so he could deal with it.

 

[Ausmerican]

I have lied to my 4 year old quite often, and will do so again I am sure.
If the correct answer to the question
"What were you and Mommy doing in the bedroom?"
is actually:
"A reciprocal act of oral sex assigned a number just below 70.",
then I think:
"Napping."
is the better answer.

As to some of the other common reasons to lie here I avoid those by being honest just one time.
My mother-in-law asked if the dress she was wearing made her butt look big. I replied no, the material the dress was made from and the pattern on it did nothing to make her butt look big.
Then, as she was walking happily away I mentioned "It is the fact that you have a huge arse that makes your butt look big."
Now, thanks to my admirable honesty in that regard, I never get asked questions like that.

 

[The Man]

Hmm. I would think that a society that is predominately truthful would be, on the whole, a happier one to live in and more successful than a society that is predominately deceitful.

An opinion I can not dispute, but I've known plenty of people who are quite happy lying and being lied to (in fact they may even be happier if people lied to them more often).

I don't think we can extrapolate from one game or even from the general behavior of one or two professions that an entire society who behaved that way (deceitfully) would be successful.

Not just games or professions but whole segments of our own society that are essentially societies unto themselves. That this forum and the JREF even exist is a testament to their ability to be successful.

Think about how much time, energy and resources would be lost if people doublechecked and verified each other, constantly, on every little detail.

Some details are simply irrelevant, so their truth or lack thereof, is of no consequence. Others are obviously false and require no further investigation. Remember deception is the key to lying (not just making assertions that happen to be, or are in all ways, false). Irrelevant and patently false details don't further the deception unless someone simply wants to believe it and then they are just lying to themselves.

Think about how much time and energy would be wasted double-checked and verifying each other, constantly, on every little detail (not to mention the problem of just working with each other) because most people can tell only just what they simply perceive to be the truth most the time as opposed to only what they believe will deceive.

Reductio ad absurdum cuts both ways.

In science double-checking and verifying each other, constantly, on every little relevant detail is the norm. Time well spent. Not because most scientist lie most of the time but because that is the best way to actually find the 'truth'.

Also, Bok points out, that ironically liars can't do what they need to do unless most of the people they deal with are honest with them. Liars are the first to complain when lied to.

Bok believes that society needs veracity to function. That is one of the assertions that she repeatedly uses to tear down some of the justifications used for lying.

Society needs some degree of truth to function, imagine a society where most were simply mistaken most of the time. The same (if not more) lack of truth is there but not the intent on deliberate deception.

That is the author's daughter. The author is Sissela_Bok^WP, also listed in Wiki.




Then you would probably really like her books. I read two of them, and I intend to read some of her others.

I see the Wiki article has some links to some interviews with her, at the end of the article.

I haven't looked at the links yet though, so I don't know how it compares to what she said in her book.

It's time for me to say good night to the forum , and tomorrow's a busy day -- but I'll try to check those links out by the end of the week.

Thanks I'll check them out, I'm off myself.

Yes, makes it more believable.

So even lies and liars need some truth to function.

 

[moebob]

Ausmerican, What you told your four year old, was totally exceptable! They are not ready for that kind of truth yet! Five more years!
Really give you credit for telling, mother-in-law that her fat butt, made her fat butt look big! Most people can't get away with that one!
I'm short, but I'm fat! They tell me I have to get petite size! Excuse me for the way I think, but when did over 200 lbs. become petite? Why can't you just say short? When you are as heavy as I am, why can't you just say your fat? I do, I own it! If I hit the lotto and became rich, I would get my clothes tailor made by omar, the tent maker!

 

[moebob]

I don't think lies and liars need truth to function, as much as they use truth as a focus point.

 

[Brian-M]

Lying is an attempt to assert control ... to empower yourself and un-empower who you lie to.

So when I'm feeling a bit down and someone asks how I'm doing, by telling them that I'm fine, I'm engaging in an act of psychological manipulation and emotional dominance? Awesome.

 

[I Ratant]

Telling a lie to someone who has no right to the truth?

Channeling Bok here, I guess she would say that its much simpler to just hang up.

But I can understand the temptation. They use to make me so angry before it was possible to get your telephone number put on a "Do Not Call" list.

.
I like to see how many disgusting words I can get out to "Rachel at Card Holder Services" before the person on the other end hangs up.

 

[I Ratant]

You know I always lie, even when I'm lying.

.
If you tend to be truthful most of the time, you don't have to remember what you said.