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When Government is Based On Religion

Brown

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
12,984
I have recently come across three documents that address a common theme.

The first is a commentary by Paul Krugman in the New York Times (reg. req'd, available for a limited time):
Democratic societies have a hard time dealing with extremists in their midst. The desire to show respect for other people's beliefs all too easily turns into denial: nobody wants to talk about the threat posed by those whose beliefs include contempt for democracy itself.
...
One thing that's going on is a climate of fear for those who try to enforce laws that religious extremists oppose.
...
Another thing that's going on is the rise of politicians willing to violate the spirit of the law, if not yet the letter, to cater to the religious right.
The second is a commentary by Shadia Drury in the current issue of Free Inquiry (not currently viewable on the web), in which she identifies several factors that make religious-based government incompatible with good government. One of the aspects of religious-based government is what Dr. Drury calls "collective guilt," in which it is believed that a deity will punish a group for the actions of a few. (We recently saw this view brought to bear, in all its nauseating glory, in the tsunami disaster and the September 11 wickedness. Thousands upon thousands of innocents died, but there were pious of many faiths who insisted that these acts represented punishment that a group as a whole deserved.) One consequence of the doctrine of collective guilt is that, to protect the innocent, government must intrude into the private concerns of others to prevent them from sinning and drawing the wrath of the Almighty.

The third is the recent decision from the Colorado Supreme Court, which is certain to draw fire from the "religious right." Basically, the defendant was convicted of assault, kidnapping, rape and murder, and he was guilty as hell. The jury was asked to determine punishment, and it decided to impose the death penalty. It was discovered later, however, that the jury was considering something in the jury room other than the evidence in the case:
The evidence adduced at the trial court’s hearing shows that: (1) one or more jurors brought a Bible, a Bible index, and handwritten notes containing the location of biblical passages into the jury room to share with another juror during deliberations in the penalty phase of defendant’s trial; (2) these extraneous materials contained a passage commanding the death penalty for murderers and another instructing obedience to civil authorities; and (3) these passages were pointed out by at least one juror to another juror before the jury reached its unanimous verdict imposing the death sentence. The trial court concluded that use of the Bible in the jury room to demonstrate a requirement of the death penalty for the crime of murder could influence a typical juror to reject a life sentence for Harlan.
...
The jury deliberated on the penalty phase late into Friday evening, but did not reach a unanimous verdict. Several jurors studied Bibles Friday night in their hotel rooms, looking for passages relating to capital punishment and a citizen’s duty to obey the law, and took notes on the location of particular passages.
When deliberations continued on Saturday, many of the jurors brought Bibles and notes on Bible passages. These materials were "read and discussed." By the end of the day, they had decided in favor of the death penalty. The Colorado Supreme Court (after addressing numerous evidentiary, procedural and appellate issues), then got to the question of whether the defendant's sentence was proper or not:
The Bible and other religious documents are considered codes of law by many in the contemporary communities from which Colorado jurors are drawn.
...
The Leviticus text is written in the first person voice of God and commands death as the punishment for murder. The Romans text instructs human beings to obey the civil government. Here, the State of Colorado was seeking the death penalty. If the jury was unable to reach a unanimous verdict of death, the trial court would have been required to impose a life sentence without the possibility of parole. Drawn from an array of typical jurors in Colorado, at least one juror in this case could have been influenced by these authoritative passages to vote for the death penalty when he or she may otherwise have voted for a life sentence.
...
In so holding, we do not suggest that the jurors who served in this case were unable to distinguish between religious and state law. Neither do we hold that consideration of the text actually produced the death penalty verdict.... Rather, our jurisprudence has developed the ... objective typical juror test for ascertaining prejudice as a means to prevent invasion of the jury's deliberative process while protecting the defendant's right to a verdict untainted by extraneous prejudicial texts. We conclude that introduction of the Bible by a juror to demonstrate to another juror a command of death for murder created a reasonable possibility that a typical juror could have been influenced to vote for a death sentence instead of life; consequently, we must uphold the trial court’s judgment vacating the death sentence and sentencing Harlan to life imprisonment without parole.
If you think that this means that a juror cannot assert Biblical authority to other jurors, think again:
We do not hold that an individual juror may not rely on and discuss with the other jurors during deliberation his or her religious upbringing, education, and beliefs in making the extremely difficult "reasoned judgment" and "moral decision" he or she is called upon to make in the fourth step of the penalty phase under Colorado law. We hold only that it was improper for a juror to bring the Bible into the jury room to share with other jurors the written Leviticus and Romans texts during deliberations; the texts had not been admitted into evidence or allowed pursuant to the trial court’s instructions.
Thus, jurors may use their religious beliefs when making a "reasoned judgment" or a "moral decision." But HOW? Religious beliefs tend to be held through faith, not reason, and not all religious principles are moral. Even more of concern is the notion that these remarks seem to undermine the Court's rationale, as the dissent eagerly points out.

Two justices dissented. The author of the dissenting opinion wrote:
Even so, I also am certain that there is no reasonable possibility that a typical jury would be prejudiced by exposure to the biblical passages at issue here.
What follows is something that is bizarre: a legal opinion in which a judge interprets scriptures, explaining what they mean. The dissenting judge says:
In sum, the jurors were entitled to rely on their own moral and religious precepts, as well as their general knowledge, in making their moral decision whether the death penalty was an appropriate punishment. The biblical passages the jurors discussed constituted either a part of the jurors' moral and religious precepts or their general knowledge, and thus were relevant to their court-sanctioned individual moral assessment.
...
Many people know large parts of the Bible by heart and can quote certain passages verbatim with persuasive alacrity, particularly when the ideas in those passages are as widespread and generally known as those referenced here. It is without doubt that a juror may relate passages of scripture from memory during deliberations, and that such recitation would not even be considered extraneous, much less prejudicial. It makes little sense, therefore, that the exact same passage in written form is somehow enshrined with an authority that the spoken or remembered passage lacks.
The dissent winds up with this bit of inflammatory rhetoric, which mis-characterizes the majority opinion but which is likely to be seized upon by the "religious right":
To presume that jurors who have a religious background cannot distinguish between the written biblical passages referenced here and the written jury instructions - a presumption that must be made in order to find prejudice in this case - is to underestimate their intelligence and to belittle their participation in our legal system.
To sum up, then, if you are on trial in Colorado and are facing the death penalty, the jury may impose that penalty upon you based in part upon religious principles that are not a part of the law; just as long as the jurors don't actually bring a Bible into the jury room. This is a very troubling ruling. Jury decisions, especially those involving life and death, MUST be based upon reason, not faith.
 
Brown said:
To sum up, then, if you are on trial in Colorado and are facing the death penalty, the jury may impose that penalty upon you based in part upon religious principles that are not a part of the law; just as long as the jurors don't actually bring a Bible into the jury room. This is a very troubling ruling. Jury decisions, especially those involving life and death, MUST be based upon reason, not faith.

I think you mildly overstate this. The court said:

We do not hold that an individual juror may not rely on and discuss with the other jurors during deliberation his or her religious upbringing, education, and beliefs in making the extremely difficult "reasoned judgment" and "moral decision" he or she is called upon to make in the fourth step of the penalty phase under Colorado law.

This "fourth step" is, after the first step of identifying an aggrevating circumstance, the second of identifying mitigating circumstances, and the third of weighing them against each other, that the jury then, if it finds that the aggrevating factors outweighed the mitigating (3rd step), take the extra step of deciding out of thin air whether the defendant really deserves to die...

This fourth step has no real criteria, and is just an extra hurdle for the state to get a death sentence, similar to the old "mercy/ no mercy" requirements that many states used to use to decide between life and death, and which at least one (W. Va.) uses to decide between life without parole and life with parole in 1st degree murder cases. The jurors are told to just decide based on their wisdom whether mercy should be granted in this case...

In that context, the above statement by the majority is that when a juror is called upon to make a subjective mercy type decision, that the juror is to call upon personal experience which will usually include one's moral education, which unfortunately for most means one's religious principles.

They aren't saying that one can say that "God says all people with green eyes are gulity" in the guilt phase; or even that the idea that "God says kill murderers" when determining the first three steps of the capital punishment criteria. They still need to follow the law of Colorado as to whether there are aggrevating or mitigating circumstances and what outweighs what. Only then, if that weighs toward death, may they interject their religious ideas into the equation in deciding this undefined "mercy" option.

Not optimal for fairness, as it interjects some prejudice into the whole process, but no sane death penalty defendant should object seeing as it is an extra chance to avoid the needle, and that the prejudice problem is easily solved by removing that 4th step, also removing that extra chance....
 
Re: Re: When Government is Based On Religion

LegalPenguin said:
I think you mildly overstate this.
I see your point. You are correct that the Colorado Supreme Court goes into depth regarding the standards that the jury must apply. The moral aspect is not the only consideration, nor is it the controlling consideration.

What is troublesome is that a life-or-death case can come down to an issue of religious belief, and that religious belief can be equated with morality.

(It may be worth noting that not all states apply the same standards or procedures that Colorado does.)

Although it was not discussed in depth in this particular Colorado opinion, ordinarily the impact of religious belief would be thoroughly explored on voir dire (the questioning of potential jurors). Ordinarily, it is desirable to get each juror who expresses religious convictions to acknowledge that s/he will not allow his religious convictions to control his vote, and that the juror will render a decision based upon the evidence and the law given to the jury by the judge, rather than upon any divine law. Here, the voir dire was apparently mishandled, but not so badly as to reverse the conviction:
In [an earlier opinion upholding the conviction], we expressed particular concern about the voir dire that resulted in the jury's selection. Several of the jurors who were seated had expressed views favoring the death penalty for all persons convicted of first degree murder. However, they all answered in response to followup questions that they would listen to the evidence, follow the court's legal instructions in the guilt and penalty phases of the trial, apply the four-step process for the penalty phase as the trial court would instruct, and not automatically vote for the death penalty. While we were "deeply troubled by the number of times the trial court failed to resolve contradictory or equivocal statements by jurors," ... and characterized the voir dire as "inherently problematic," ... we concluded that the trial court's voir dire rulings were supported by the evidence and were constitutionally sufficient.
In addition, the Colorado court mentions that religion and the Bible made various appearances throughout the trial, apparently most often brought up by the defendant's own attorney. This might have been a tactical error, in that if a defendant's defense is based upon a biblical story (the tale of Abraham's aborted sacrifice of Isaac was used), then the jury might well conclude that any biblical principle was fair game.

It is interesting that the Colorado court did not take notice of the fact that Jesus himself did not think highly of the "eye for an eye" doctrine. On the contrary, he quite clearly urges a gentler approach:
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
 
Not only has the Bible not been codified law in the US for a long time, it also commands its followers to eschew the 'eye for an eye', and to leave that sort of vengeance for the Lord...

Which makes the juror's reliance on Scripture even more troubling...if they can't even get their own religion's precepts right, how badly did they mangle the judge's instructions and the testimony?
 
Voir dire?


"Right to a Jury Trial: A play in two acts"

Act I

(Judge's anteroom, day)

Juror: "I think anyone who is indicted is guilty."

Me: "Move to strike for cause."

Judge: "But can you listen to the evidence and follow my instructions and be fair in this case."

Juror: "Yes Your Honor."

Judge: "Motion denied. Next!"

Juror2: "I think all cops are lying pigs."

Prosecutor: "Move to strike for cause"

Judge: "Granted."

Act 2:

(Crappy office, day)

(Noble Public Defender is reading opinion from Appeals Court)

Appeals Court: (offstage) "While problematic, the petitioner can not show an abuse of discretion and thus the Trial Court's voir dire rulings are constitutionally sufficent. The Conviction for Cattle Rustling is AFFIRMED"

Me: (Rolls eyes, writes letter to client, closes file)

THE END


As a citizen, I don't much care for the allowance of religion at all in these scenerios. I think they violate basic principles of government in that they allow certain religious, or even racial groups avoid punishment that others will be subjected to.

Problem is, that if they are framed as they are here, nobody in their right mind is going to challenge it, because it being a extra step anyway all a defendant does is eliminate a chance to miss the needle...

I deal with this nonsense on a daily basis, here the penalty for 1st degree murder is set at life/no parole. If the jury decides to give "mercy," the poor bastard is parole eligible in 15 years. There are zero criteria for this, and in fact our courts are clear that no guidence whatsoever as to criteria is to be given to jurors.

This is nuts, and much like the "Fourth Step" Colorado uses. The legislature could fix it by giving everyone LWOP, but that leads to possible worse injustice seeing that we have a pretty overbroad 1st degree definiation and already crowded jails. Since this is seen as a "break" for defendants, any due process arguments against this fail, as there is no "liberty" being taken, it just isn't being given back.

Bunch of BS, but it is the future, the end run around due process. Set high "standard" penalties and then allow "reductions" if certain things are proven... This was foreseen by a dissent in the recent USSC case tossing out the federal guidelines...

However, once someone has the gall to write a statute along the lines of (I'm exaggerating...):

a) The penalty for Battery is 10 years in prison. If the Jury finds the defendant is a Good Christian then the penalty can be reduced to a fine of 1$"

b) If the reduction criteria above is found unconstitutional, the original penalty stands.

Well... what then? I'm not going to advise a challenge to anyone, better to just argue that the client is a "Good Christian" if convicted and hope for the best, but it stinks, and for the most part this is exactly what "Step 4" in Colorado and "Mercy" in W.Va. means, just not so defined...
 
The court proceedings seem so very religious.
Could an atheist demand a jury of peers?

Or would a better strategy be to pretend to be religious, or pretend to have gone through a conversion... perhaps after reading a popular Christian book?
 
Kopji said:
Or would a better strategy be to pretend to be religious, or pretend to have gone through a conversion... perhaps after reading a popular Christian book?
This strategy has been employed time and again. Many criminal defendants have deliberately brought Bibles to their trials, and made sure that jurors saw them "consulting" the Scriptures during the proceedings. It is usually a criminal defense attorney, not a prosecutor, that points out that a defendant is "God fearing" or "church-going." Although the contrary was portrayed in the movie "In Cold Blood," it is usually the defense, not the prosecution, that cites specific Bible verses or Bible stories to evoke the sympathy of the jury.

And usually it is the prosecutor that reminds the jury that it must decide the case on the basis of the law and the evidence, and must set aside religious sympathies or prejudices as part of the jury's sworn fact-finding duty.
 
Another column of interest, by former Senator John Danforth (also an ordained Episcopal priest) in the New York Times (reg. req'd, limited time):
The problem is not with people or churches that are politically active. It is with a party that has gone so far in adopting a sectarian agenda that it has become the political extension of a religious movement.

When government becomes the means of carrying out a religious program, it raises obvious questions under the First Amendment. But even in the absence of constitutional issues, a political party should resist identification with a religious movement. While religions are free to advocate for their own sectarian causes, the work of government and those who engage in it is to hold together as one people a very diverse country. At its best, religion can be a uniting influence, but in practice, nothing is more divisive. For politicians to advance the cause of one religious group is often to oppose the cause of another.
...
As a senator, I worried every day about the size of the federal deficit. I did not spend a single minute worrying about the effect of gays on the institution of marriage. Today it seems to be the other way around. (emphasis mine)
Although I am no fan of former Senator Danforth (he was largely responsible for making sure Clarence Thomas was confirmed as a justice of the Supreme Court), his column has some words of common sense. Religion has a history, as he says, of being the great divider, not the great uniter it claims to be. When government acts as an arm of a religious movement, it necessarily and unavoidably steps on the religious liberty of others.

Will those currently in power heed former Sen. Danforth's remarks? Not likely.
 
Brown said:
This strategy has been employed time and again. Many criminal defendants have deliberately brought Bibles to their trials, and made sure that jurors saw them "consulting" the Scriptures during the proceedings. It is usually a criminal defense attorney, not a prosecutor, that points out that a defendant is "God fearing" or "church-going." Although the contrary was portrayed in the movie "In Cold Blood," it is usually the defense, not the prosecution, that cites specific Bible verses or Bible stories to evoke the sympathy of the jury.

And usually it is the prosecutor that reminds the jury that it must decide the case on the basis of the law and the evidence, and must set aside religious sympathies or prejudices as part of the jury's sworn fact-finding duty.

I remember a quote from Hunter Thompson when he was in all that legal trouble in the early 90's... something like "If I come out for Jesus you know they've got something on me."
 
I would like to chime in with a comment that any goverment based on absolute ideology worries me. Religion happens to be the largest producer of AIs, but as the communists demonstrated not the only one.
 
IllegalArgument said:
I would like to chime in with a comment that any goverment based on absolute ideology worries me.
Shadia Drury also made this point. Religions, particularly scripture-based religions, tend to be opposed to liberty. They generally hold that ideals are more important than freedom, and that many people will abuse their freedom if they have it. Moreover, rejection of their religious ideals or beliefs is deemed to be a horrendous sin. Accordingly, it is not enough for the religious to abide by their principles into their own lives; they feel that they must compel others to abide by those principles as well.

And when you combine that with the notion of collective guilt, you get a mindset that is highly opposed to the liberty of others who do not share those beliefs. As I said in this thread:
There seems to be a feeling is that evangelical values have to be imposed on everyone by law, because if they aren't, then that is exactly the same as sinful values being imposed upon everyone. And, in their view, the Almighty will judge harshly those with sinful values. In addition, the Almighty does not always act surgically, as He has planned various catastrophic events that will cause suffering to both the guilty and the innocent....
 
Brown said:
Shadia Drury also made this point. Religions, particularly scripture-based religions, tend to be opposed to liberty. They generally hold that ideals are more important than freedom, and that many people will abuse their freedom if they have it. Moreover, rejection of their religious ideals or beliefs is deemed to be a horrendous sin. Accordingly, it is not enough for the religious to abide by their principles into their own lives; they feel that they must compel others to abide by those principles as well.

And when you combine that with the notion of collective guilt, you get a mindset that is highly opposed to the liberty of others who do not share those beliefs. As I said in this thread:

All good points, I just like to make mention in threads of this nature. That secular ideologies can just as fanatical as religious one.
 
Brown said:
To sum up, then, if you are on trial in Colorado and are facing the death penalty, the jury may impose that penalty upon you based in part upon religious principles that are not a part of the law; just as long as the jurors don't actually bring a Bible into the jury room. This is a very troubling ruling. Jury decisions, especially those involving life and death, MUST be based upon reason, not faith.

On the other hand, the concept that such grave moral issues may be divorced from religious conviction is completely the opposite of what it means to live in a free society -- with freedom of religion. The idea that a person, a juror, must now divorce part of their moral essence from the issue of the death penalty goes completely against the grain and nature of why we have jurors in the first place. It is a conceit of some in government that such things are necessary or proper.

I am enheartened by the decision -- it is wrong for a juror to point out Bible passages to another juror, but it is ok for a juror to reference it by themself for the purpose of their own decision. They do not have to de-religiousize their own viewpoint to make the state happy.

Having said that, I'd still be pissed off someone wanted me executed because the Bible said so. Still, the ruling seems proper.
 
Once the Schiavo case settles, look for more intimidation in the name of God and undermining of the rule of law from the right.

Thats the byline for the Krugman piece and I expected as much. The religious right has not gotten their way in the Schiavo case.

In fact, I think his elitist mentality is blocking him from seeing the truth. These religious right people weren't undermining democracy. They were participating in it. Just because people like myself and Krugman don't like that participation doesn't mean it is undemocratic. The people (who are a large constituency) phoned, faxed, and begged their elected representatives to do something; and that is what happened. That is democracy (in the vernacular sense).

In the technical sense, democracy is mob rule, but even though the majority of americans takes a laissez-faire approach to the Schiavo case it means nothing since the issue has been decided by the judicial branch (as it should be).

And what Judge made one of these decisions? A southern baptist of course (who was expelled by a close minded elitist baptist preacher no less).

Obviously though this judge represents a threat to democracy and should have been thrown off the bench.

Now, am I being fair to Krugman? Resorting to straws perhaps? But I reserve the right to be an ass. Krugman is spewing the same generic template "religious right taliban" stuff I've heard people murmur for years.

And guess what? Terry Schiavo is not going to get her feeding tube reinserted. So much for the power of the religious right boogeyman.

As for the rest of your post Brown, I found it informative and provocative (and the sources were interesting). I don't mean for my criticism of the Krugman part to discredit or lessen the rest of your otherwise intelligent and well constructed post.
 
"So much for the power of the religious right boogeyman."

Perhaps....but I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of people phoning, faxing, and begging their elected representatives to legislate morality to suit their narrow interpretation of it.

And I would respectfully disagree that attempts at pulling an end run around the rule of law, and replacing it with a variation of the spoils system (as in 'I/we voted for you/got you elected, now ignore the courts and do something!'), is truly an exercise in democracy.
 
corplinx said:
Since I don't have a NYT account, could you frame the Krugman piece?

1.Use this : http://www.bugmenot.com/

2. Brown, this was very informative, thank you. I have been enjoying Sharia Drury's articles in Open Democracy for quite some time now.

3. I have a question that popped up to my mind while reading the thread and the articles.

Last week, during a murder trial, a Bible appeared and the defendant quoted the Leviticus. Instead of questioning the use of a religious text in the court of Law I made a simple statement addressing the jury: Christians believe that the Old Testament has been fulfilled with the coming of Jesus and we don't resort to it for guidance anymore.It's not canonical. The defendant stayed speechless and the issue was closed I wonder why the Old Testament is still used by the Christians in the States.

I hope that this question won't derail the thread.
 
crimresearch said:

Perhaps....but I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of people phoning, faxing, and begging their elected representatives to legislate morality to suit their narrow interpretation of it.

They are a special interest. They will of course keep trying to get things changed the way they want them. Just because the govt doesn't enact new fuel efficiency standards on the automakers doesn't mean environmentalists won't stop lobbying for them.
 
Cleopatra said:
Last week, during a murder trial, a Bible appeared and the defendant quoted the Leviticus. Instead of questioning the use of a religious text in the court of Law I made a simple statement addressing the jury: Christians believe that the Old Testament has been fulfilled with the coming of Jesus and we don't resort to it for guidance anymore.It's not canonical. The defendant stayed speechless and the issue was closed I wonder why the Old Testament is still used by the Christians in the States.

I hope that this question won't derail the thread.
Actually, there is no single "Christian" view on this point. Some believe that, since Jesus was quoted as saying that he didn't come to overturn the old laws, then the old laws are still in full force and effect (subject to minor modifications... such as conducting religious meetings on a day other than Saturday and not being bound to certain legalistic notions). Others say that the actions of Jesus superceded the old laws, which are no longer in force (with Jesus reaffirming some of the old laws, such as the prohibition of stealing). But many, if not most, Christians apply a "pick and choose" strategy. Some of the old laws are still deemed valid (the supposedly anti-abortion passages are principally Old Testament passages, as are some of the harshest anti-homosexual passages are in the OT, and some even hold that child-beating is mandated by the book of Proverbs), and some are disregarded (such as the prohibition against eating tasty shellfish).

I would wonder about the sanity of any defendant who quoted the Old Testament as part of his defense. That part of the Scriptures is heavy on punishment, light on mercy.

I can only recall one instance in which I knew of a prosecutor using a Bible against a defendant. The defendant refused to pay taxes, citing a personal religious objection based upon various Bible verses. On cross-examination, the prosecutor had the defendant read from Romans chapter 13, particulary verse 6 (Paul urges people to pay their taxes), and also the verses in which Jesus urges people to "render unto Caesar." The prosecution won the case.
 
Brown said:


I can only recall one instance in which I knew of a prosecutor using a Bible against a defendant. The defendant refused to pay taxes, citing a personal religious objection based upon various Bible verses. On cross-examination, the prosecutor had the defendant read from Romans chapter 13, particulary verse 6 (Paul urges people to pay their taxes), and also the verses in which Jesus urges people to "render unto Caesar." The prosecution won the case.

I guess there the the defendant opened the door and the state just responded, so it would survive challenge.

I suspect that most prosecutors worth a darn figure out that bringing up religion is a very good way to have a hard earned conviction tossed out on appeal. Defendants don't have to worry about protecting acquittals on appeal so if all else fails praise Jesus...seems like a good idea to some

Problem is, in my experience, the one thing that you will do by whipping out a bible or otherwise going the Jesus route is anger the Judge.
 

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