When does ‘god’ mean ‘god’?

Marc

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In many of the church/state issues we run into what is called Ceremonial Deism. Where the religious connotations of say an opening prayer is more based on tradition rather than the following of a specific religion or invocation of a specific god. We see this often in protecting prayers at city counsel meetings, school boards, and other government functions.

A version of this is used to protect the “under god” statement in the Pledge of Allegiance. The claim is that as ‘under god’ does not reference any particular god it is perfectly ok. Some go so far as to claim the statement is not religious at all, or does not even mean ‘god’. Critics generally feel these are a smokescreen. That those protecting or promoting “under god”/”in god we trust” or the like do very much mean the Christian god, and their not Jesus specifically is to get around the first amendment.

But wait!! What about arguments for Americas ‘christian heritage’? Many of these same groups argue that the US was founded on Christian principals. How do they do this when the Constitution has no references to god at all? By quoting the Declaration of Independence, which makes references to “Laws of Nature and of Nature's God” and “endowed by their Creator”. If anything these references are even more vague than in the pledge. If we are to take ‘Natures God’ as being specifically referring to Jesus, then why do we take “under god” and “god bless America” as not referring to him?

Seems that the interpretation is being tailored to the situation so as to insure the prayer or god reference stays. Isn’t there a commandment about false witness or something? Ok, such an accusation would be very hard to prove. It would most likely require a person flat out stating they want such statements for the reason of promoting Christianity, which is unlikely to happen. The closest example to this I can think of is the congressman who wanted to expand the prison chaplain program. When the prison in question hired the most qualified person for the job, and it turned out they were Wiccan, the congressman demanded the person be removed or all funding for prison chaplains would be cut off.
 
Marc said:
Isn’t there a commandment about false witness or something?
There is a commandment prohibiting taking the name of the Lord in vain.

According to Martin Luther, the name of the Almighty should not be invoked for trivial matters, but should be invoked for "prayer, praise and thanksgiving."

The use of "In God We Trust" on currency is not prayer, praise or thanksgiving. The invocation of the name of "God" in the Pledge is not prayer, praise or thanksgiving, either. In general, so-called "ceremonial deism" invokes the name of the Almighty for trivial matters, or is specifically not for prayer, praise or thanksgiving.

Why are the folks who are so "pro-Commandments" not upset about the use of the name of God for non-religious matters? It seems to me that they ought to be, but they aren't.
 
Believe me, "under God" isnt a loophole through the first amendement. Regardless of whether its denomination specific, its still an iconic symbol of religion. And that equals NAUGHTY!

As far as the United States being founded as a Christian Nation... are we still a Christian Nation? No (and we never were).

From Infidels.org - Common Arguements:
From Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series 358):
<blockquote>As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.</blockquote>

Ignoring the question of the wording of the Arabic version of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, we can conclude that the wording of the English article XI fairly represents the opinion of the time, as it was passed and approved by both the US Senate and the President.


So, when does "god" mean "god"... unless in explecative form, everytime.
 
When does "god" mean "god?" When it doesn't mean "holy poop on a stick." Which is never.
 
guess I should have worded the title differently.

When does 'god' mean Jebus, and when does it mean a generic, non sectarian god.


Answer: It always means Jebus Crisco, except when they would not get away with saying him specifically, then they mean the generic god *wink**wink*
 
My guess:

Unless the context of the statement makes some clear reference to a specific god, then I guess the god is in the mind of the beholder.

Unless of course you (like me) don't believe any truly exist. I guess then god could mean the ubiquitous "ED" :)

*editted* to add some omitted characters (sometimes my fingers work faster than my brain) ;)
 
Marc said:
guess I should have worded the title differently.

When does 'god' mean Jebus, and when does it mean a generic, non sectarian god.

Nah, your title is perfectly fine. I think most knew what you were talking about.

And your point is valid. The defense raised against removing "In God We Trust" or "under God" is that they really aren't religious statements, and are, at most, "ceremonial diesm." But just listen to the uproar when you do suggest changing it.

Who knew there were so many "ceremonial diests" in the country.
 
Re: Re: When does ‘god’ mean ‘god’?

Brown said:
There is a commandment prohibiting taking the name of the Lord in vain.

There's also a commandment about "having no other gods but me." So, in the Christian mind, it must always mean Jebus, because there ain't anyone else there.
 
Here's my take:

In those cases where "ceremonial deism" is invoked, would ceremonial atheism be accepted as a substitute?

Ha, ha, ha!

Really; even ceremonial islam or ceremonial hinduism? Ha!

When we all stop laughing, it is clear that ceremonial or not, such instances constitute the promotion of one religious point of view over others. Proponents may claim it is about tradition, but curiously it is only the religious aspects of tradition they care about. For example, the Pledge was around for quite a while without the "under God" addition. Why is the revised version more important to preserve than the earlier version?
 
I think the point at which this argument becomes slightly confusing or bewildering is the point at which you assume your garden variety christian, let alone your decidedly anti-atheist/secular humanist politically motivated christian has some sort of consistency to their own beliefs and/or the statements and guidelines of their bible. Read the bible sometime then listen to a Pat Robertson or a Jerry Falwell or just pick a conservative legislator from the south and ask yourself how consistent they are. They're consistent with an established set of dogma from their own denomination, or just geographical area sometimes.

Consider that the next time you see a political conservative christian who's trying to push to get the 10 commandments into ever school tells you the Jews are undermining Christian American values or something to that effect, ...and soak up the irony. Read about a dozen quotes from someone like Pat Robertson and try to find some reasonable level of consistency on almost any subject outside of thinking that christians are the only people worth anything.
 

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