When Do You Rock The Boat?

Good point. I wonder also why the OP advises their friend to "start causing trouble".

Couldn't there be a case of "Well, why didn't you just ask?" about this?


I haven't advised them to do anything, and my "cause trouble" is a bit tongue-in-cheek, what I of course mean is wait until their job is secure before bringing the issue up.

The reason for me being wary of it being an "honest mistake" is that these are very experienced business owners, and the law has been in place for 3 years. I would struggle to believe an employer had been innocently breaking it this long with this many staff.
 
I haven't advised them to do anything, and my "cause trouble" is a bit tongue-in-cheek, what I of course mean is wait until their job is secure before bringing the issue up.

The reason for me being wary of it being an "honest mistake" is that these are very experienced business owners, and the law has been in place for 3 years. I would struggle to believe an employer had been innocently breaking it this long with this many staff.

Fair enough. But I still think it might be worth asking about to the employer and starting off reasonably. If things get nasty then it might not be worth working there even if your friend gets their entitlements.

Just my two yen, naturally.
 
Fair enough. But I still think it might be worth asking about to the employer and starting off reasonably. If things get nasty then it might not be worth working there even if your friend gets their entitlements.

Just my two yen, naturally.


Oh I totally agree. In fact by law they're required to start off by approaching the employer. The Employment Relations Authority won't get involved until that avenue has failed to achieve a satisfactory solution.

For what it's worth, while I raised a specific example in the OP I am also kind of interested in discussing this sort of dilemma in general. What do you do when you have a dilemma where your weaker position compared to your employer is being exploited like that?

I'm very much of the "employers only get away with it because no one will speak up" camp, but at the same time, a job where you're being exploited is better than no job at all.
 
My question about the effect is still unanswered. I understand what the law says, but quite honestly literally millions of people deal with those conditions every day without complaint or it being a problem (I did for years). My personal decision to hold my boss to the letter of the law is entirely dependent on the situation.

What does your friend actually do? How would the business/customers be affected by the breaks? Can he take a piss when he needs to? How is the work environment otherwise?
 
My question about the effect is still unanswered.

It has been answered, you just don't appear to agree with the answer. That is, of course, your right.


I understand what the law says, but quite honestly literally millions of people deal with those conditions every day without complaint or it being a problem (I did for years).

That's hardly an argument. Millions of people dealt with being slaves for centuries without complaint or issue. Our society passed a law requiring minimum break periods for employees because our society decided it was unacceptable to work under conditions where they were not given these breaks. The breaks are the employee's legal rights. The "problem" is that the employer is infringing on their rights.


My personal decision to hold my boss to the letter of the law is entirely dependent on the situation.

Of course. And the law only requires employers to take all reasonable steps to meet these minimum breaks. I queried my friend as to whether this was an exceptional situation because the store has only recently opened and they said that no, they had been told this would be the permanent arrangement in the store. I don't think anyone would have issue with missing breaks on an unusually busy day or if they were short-staffed or something, but to have it as the permanent arrangement is a different situation altogether.


What does your friend actually do?

I have no intention of revealing sufficient information that my friend's workplace could be identified. They work in retail, doing the sorts of things that are done in retail stores. That's sufficient information for this thread.



How would the business/customers be affected by the breaks? Can he take a piss when he needs to? How is the work environment otherwise?

My friend's position is not sole charge; I think the total staff in the store is in the region of 10 or 12 so there's plenty of people to cover for breaks. The affect on the business or customers should be negligible.

My one proper stint in retail was in a much bigger store with much less staff, and breaks were never an issue (and that was before those breaks were obligatory).

My immediate assumption when my friend raised the issue was that it was an unusual arrangement for just that day, because of particular circumstances. I assumed that because I've never, ever heard of a business failing to provide employees these basic breaks. Even with sole-charge stores it's normal practice here that the employee simply closes the store for the duration of their break. It has been a common sight all my life to see very small businesses with a little sign on the door saying "back in 10 minutes". In fact it's common enough that you can buy professionally manufactured signs of various types for specifically that purpose.
 
Here in Canada there's a Ministry of Labour office you can go to and get accurate and discrete information on labour laws as they pertain to particular situations. I highly recommend inquiring from them (assuming there is one) before talking to anyone at work.

Although the law cited in this thread is probably the applicable one, here in Canada at least there are exceptions to the rule depending on the industry. I've also worked jobs where the "break" is at the start of the shift, so you may swipe in at say 7:10 but get paid from 7. Then if there happens to be a collective bargaining agreement in place (which is doubtful from the information you've provided) the labour laws don't apply.

In all likelihood from what you've described however your friend is getting screwed. The benefit of going to the here Ministry is if it is a problem they will do an inquiry, protect your friends identity and protect him from any retribution in the event the employer did find out.

Obviously this is Canada and YMMV.
 
Many retail shops want people on the floor or on the registers because they feel that an ignored customer is a non-buying customer.* The best way to do this is to have everyone on the floor at all times.

This boss hired a guy with a three year blank on his resume and that might be standard practice. People who have a hard time getting a job will put up with more to keep it. I have no proof of this. It's a gut reaction, take it or leave it.

Some really good ideas in this thread already. - Document everything for the first 90 days. A simply diary with "day 1 - given 16 minute break at 2:00, no others." will suffice. If any other employees are frustrated with this, they can join in.

After 90 days, show it to the boss. This doesn't have to be confrontational. Interacting with the public can be tiring. A 15 minute break is perfect for getting your game face back. It makes you a better employee.

There's also the very remote chance that your friend is already getting the legal amount of breaks. There's a period of readjustment after a long time unemployed. Not that he's lazy or entitled. 15 minutes is barely enough time to go to the bathroom and smoke a cigarette, for example. When you're rushed, it doesn't feel like a break. it just feels like adding a pee and a smoke to your rounds. Documenting what he does with his time would sort that out as well.

It sucks to be out of work and it sucks more to feel helpless. I truly hope that he gets this worked out. At least to the point where it's a job, it pays the bills and that reduces stress.

*ETA: Here in the US. It's different around the world.
 
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It has been answered, you just don\\\'t appear to agree with the answer. That is, of course, your right.
I asked how it personally affected your friend. You did not mention any personal effect. One job I had during college was working as a security guard where I did little else during the night but sit in the guard shack at the entrance to the property. I would sometimes go a couple of hours without a vehicle coming in. I did not get a break, but I spent 80% of my time reading the newspaper while listening to the radio. It had no effect.

I also worked construction labor in the sweltering heat. I needed periodic breaks to go sit in the shade, drink some water and have a snack. I needed a lunch break to refuel and rest.

That\\\'s hardly an argument. Millions of people dealt with being slaves for centuries without complaint or issue. Our society passed a law requiring minimum break periods for employees because our society decided it was unacceptable to work under conditions where they were not given these breaks. The breaks are the employee\\\'s legal rights. The \\\"problem\\\" is that the employer is infringing on their rights.
LOL. Slaves had no complaints or issues?

You are merely arguing from the position that the law is justified in every circumstance. A significant percentage (if not the majority) of the world disagrees. Before I would complain, I would seriously consider just how much effect it has on me. It is basic risk analysis because complaining entails a risk. If it did not, you would not be asking.

Of course. And the law only requires employers to take all reasonable steps to meet these minimum breaks. I queried my friend as to whether this was an exceptional situation because the store has only recently opened and they said that no, they had been told this would be the permanent arrangement in the store. I don\\\'t think anyone would have issue with missing breaks on an unusually busy day or if they were short-staffed or something, but to have it as the permanent arrangement is a different situation altogether.

I have no intention of revealing sufficient information that my friend\\\'s workplace could be identified. They work in retail, doing the sorts of things that are done in retail stores. That\\\'s sufficient information for this thread.
That seems a bit paranoid, especially since your society has deemed it unacceptable.

There is no question as to what should be done. Remind the boss of the law. If he fails to comply, take it to the proper authority. Society will have his back, right? They do not want slaves.

If I can work a shift with a single 15 minute break without any adverse effects beyond knowing that the law says I should get more breaks, I would simply do it. I have never been unemployed for three years. In fact I have only had one job interview in my life where I did not get an offer. My work ethic is such that I do what it takes to get the job done. I am not concerned with rules just for the sake of them being rules.

My friend\\\'s position is not sole charge; I think the total staff in the store is in the region of 10 or 12 so there\\\'s plenty of people to cover for breaks. The affect on the business or customers should be negligible.
Can your friend take a piss break?

My one proper stint in retail was in a much bigger store with much less staff, and breaks were never an issue (and that was before those breaks were obligatory).

My immediate assumption when my friend raised the issue was that it was an unusual arrangement for just that day, because of particular circumstances. I assumed that because I\\\'ve never, ever heard of a business failing to provide employees these basic breaks. Even with sole-charge stores it\\\'s normal practice here that the employee simply closes the store for the duration of their break. It has been a common sight all my life to see very small businesses with a little sign on the door saying \\\"back in 10 minutes\\\". In fact it\\\'s common enough that you can buy professionally manufactured signs of various types for specifically that purpose.

I cannot imagine being in a shop by myself and closing it for 10 minutes just for the sake of taking a 10 minute break. I would do it if I needed to hit the head, but beyond that, I would not.

My final answer to your question is that if it is not causing any hardship beyond the mental anguish of knowing the law says it should be otherwise, I would be grateful to have a job after three years and keep my mouth shut. I would work hard, earn the respect of my boss, and only then would I try to get things changed.
 
I have a question to throw to the masses for consideration. As an employee, when is the right time to rock the boat?

A friend of mine is in the following scenario:

They have recently started a new job, having been out of work for three years. They don't have a great employment record nor a good education.

As such, in the current economic climate they're not particularly employable, and it was a real battle to get a job. It's nothing amazing, basic retail in a small business with two local outlets.

As allowed by law, they are currently on a 90-day grace period where they can be dismissed at any time, without justification. After that time they enjoy the full protections of the (quite generous) employment law in this country.

The problem is, their employer appears to be intent on restricting some employee entitlements. Specifically, the rest and meal breaks that are provided in law.

The question is, at which point do you bring this up? If it goes to court the employee will win, without question. It's a blatant breach of employment law. However they will also probably lose their job, and will have to face the crushing task of trying to find another one in this inhospitable climate. I'm not clear where the law stands on dismissal during that 90 days. My understanding is you can't even legally raise an unfair dismissal complaint, thus if they were to raise the issue with the employer (a necessary step before the case can be brought to court) they would pretty much seal their fate.

However, if they remain silent until they've secured a permanent contract, the concern is the courts might question the employee's failure to raise the issue earlier.

Any ideas?

I'm inclined to advise them to wait it out, secure the permanent position, make themselves an invaluable member of the team, and then start causing trouble. Rely on the vulnerable position they're in and the fact they had no choice but to continue the job to sway a judge, if it makes it to court.

you have no sense of machivelianism.
 
Is this temporary for the Christmas season in retail? If so, then I would just deal with it.
 
There's also the very remote chance that your friend is already getting the legal amount of breaks. There's a period of readjustment after a long time unemployed. Not that he's lazy or entitled. 15 minutes is barely enough time to go to the bathroom and smoke a cigarette, for example. When you're rushed, it doesn't feel like a break. it just feels like adding a pee and a smoke to your rounds. Documenting what he does with his time would sort that out as well.



I might not have been totally clear, but this isn't a case of my friend saying "I feel like I'm not getting the breaks I'm entitled to, my lunch is always cut short" this is a case of the employer explicitly stating to the entire staff "you will get one fifteen minute meal break during the day".

The only way in which my friend could actually be getting their legal breaks is if they're lying to me about the entire situation, which, granted, is a possibility, but seems unlikely given I can't think of any motive to do so.
 
I might not have been totally clear, but this isn't a case of my friend saying "I feel like I'm not getting the breaks I'm entitled to, my lunch is always cut short" this is a case of the employer explicitly stating to the entire staff "you will get one fifteen minute meal break during the day".

The only way in which my friend could actually be getting their legal breaks is if they're lying to me about the entire situation, which, granted, is a possibility, but seems unlikely given I can't think of any motive to do so.

Actually this wasn't clear (to me) from your OP.

How many hours does your friend work?

Are you saying that in an 8- / 10- / 12- hour shift they only get 15 minutes off in which they are expected to eat lunch or dinner?

If it is an 8-hour shift or more then this is definitely very bad.

Sorry, I had assumed that he had an upaid lunch break during the day and that his other breaks were being short-changed.

No, to me that doesn't even sound like smart business on the boss' part as he'll be turning his workers into surly and disgruntled zombies. That in itself is a good reason for the boss to reconsider and the fact that such working schedules aren't pleasant is a good reason for your friend to bring it up with his boss.

But, just for me (and others who might also be not as quick to get the whole situation) could you give us a breakdown of your friend's working schedule.

How many hours?
From what time to what time?
 
That's a shame. Employers should be allowed to do whatever they please, and employees should be allowed to quit (assuming freedom to quit is in their contract). I suggest your friend read Atlas Shrugged.
 
The only way in which my friend could actually be getting their legal breaks is if they're lying to me about the entire situation, which, granted, is a possibility, but seems unlikely given I can't think of any motive to do so.

Your "friend" wants a pity party. S/he is also angling to borrow a quite large sum of money in the future. Also, this month be wary of Leos.
 
Actually this wasn't clear (to me) from your OP.

How many hours does your friend work?

Are you saying that in an 8- / 10- / 12- hour shift they only get 15 minutes off in which they are expected to eat lunch or dinner?

If it is an 8-hour shift or more then this is definitely very bad.

Sorry, I had assumed that he had an upaid lunch break during the day and that his other breaks were being short-changed.

No, to me that doesn't even sound like smart business on the boss' part as he'll be turning his workers into surly and disgruntled zombies. That in itself is a good reason for the boss to reconsider and the fact that such working schedules aren't pleasant is a good reason for your friend to bring it up with his boss.

But, just for me (and others who might also be not as quick to get the whole situation) could you give us a breakdown of your friend's working schedule.

How many hours?
From what time to what time?


The specific times vary, I guess, but it's essentially standard shopping hours so 8.30am - 5pm, plus maybe 30min to 1hr over that on occasion. I would say an 8-9hr day as standard though.

They get one 15min break in which they get to eat their lunch.
 

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