When are police killings justified?

staunch said:
From the article.
Sgt Cahir told an advancing Biggs to drop his weapons before shooting him.

He didn't comply. Biggs was shot dead. No one has disputed Cahir did not give him the verbal command to drop the weapon. Biggs did not comply. Non-compliance got him killed. Coroner's are human they make mistakes Did he make a mistake I don't know. Your quoting a person in authority. We know how that works. The point is he didn't shoot Biggs then ask him to drop the weapon. He followed procedure, verbal commands.[
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The coroner was very clear that the officer did not follow procedure - why are you claiming he did?
 
WildCat said:
Apparently no one knows what the charges will be, which seems odd. 5 years of investigating and they still don't know what charges will be brought?
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Not as odd as you claiming that this incident, as reported, supported your claim!
 
Darat said:
The coroner was very clear that the officer did not follow procedure - why are you claiming he did?
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Again from the article.
Clearly, the coroner said that the police officer had no choice but to discharge his firearm and, had Tasers been available, perhaps that would have been another option," he said.

If he had no choice, then he followed procedure. Sounds like she would have prefered he use a taser. If available.
 
staunch said:
Again from the article.
Clearly, the coroner said that the police officer had no choice but to discharge his firearm and, had Tasers been available, perhaps that would have been another option," he said.

If he had no choice, then he followed procedure. Sounds like she would have prefered he use a taser. If available.
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You must be reading different articles to me - can you link the one you are taking your quotes from so we get on the same page - thanks.
 
staunch said:
If he had no choice, then he followed procedure.
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That doesn't follow. He may have violated procedure in getting into a situation where he had no choice but to use his weapon. In fact that's exactly what I recall the coroner saying, and I also recall saying exactly this earlier in the thread.

From your own link:

Ms Jamieson said Sgt Cahir did not follow operational safety procedures, placing himself and his junior at risk.

The coroner said that once Sgt Cahir decided to go it alone, he was left with only enough time to defend his own life and had no choice but to fire.

"Sgt Cahir created the scenario which led to Mr Biggs' death when he single-handedly confronted Mr Biggs, a man armed with weapons in a busy residential area, acting in a dangerous, violent and irrational manner," she said.
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Kevin_Lowe said:
That doesn't follow. He may have violated procedure in getting into a situation where he had no choice but to use his weapon. In fact that's exactly what I recall the coroner saying, and I also recall saying exactly this earlier in the thread.

From your own link:
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No one can guess what a man armed with weapons in a busy residential area, acting in a dangerous, violent and irrational manner," will do. I don't agree with the coroner, the suspect created the incident. The police responded to the incident which was clearly a threat to public safety. The key here is verbal command, drop the weapon, no one disputes this. if he rolled up to the scene and shot him without verbal communication he would without question be in violation of dept procedure. Deadly force is the last resort. That is also procedure.

He may have violated procedure in getting into a situation where he had no choice but to use his weapon.
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What procedure? It's not clear what procedure he violated. I believe the coroner means he could have used non-lethal force. The taser she mentioned.
 
staunch said:
What procedure? It's not clear what procedure he violated. I believe the coroner means he could have used non-lethal force. The taser she mentioned.
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Since the coroner is obviously aware that the police officer in question had no taser, that interpretation makes absolutely no sense.

The fact that you're unclear on what procedure he violated doesn't mean you get to make stuff up.
 
tyr_13 said:
I imagine that the officers attempted to pull the car close to the suspect in order to block him off from civilians. The officer on the side opposite the suspect exited the car, while the other one stayed in to avoid being skewered. This would be consistent with a 'containment' policy. However, when the car drove away is when things went from 'maybe reasonable' to, 'major cockup'. At that point I can't say that I blame the officer who shot the man except for agreeing with the foolish choice to pull that close to the suspect in a manner which didn't allow for both officers to confront or at least distract the man.

It may have been that the man would have been shot anyway. Maybe not. At any rate, a couple of poor choices which goes against policy makes it so that we can't know.

How the coroner knows this from the body, I'm not sure I understand.
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I'd love to see a picture of his exact stance with the swords as the car left. Sounds like he had more than decorative knowledge of them - though appears he may have been moving for an expected sword attack against himself.
 
I tend not to second guess police for what they did in a tense situation created by a violent person. It's a tough job. I don't expect them to put their own lives at risk to take an armed suspect into custody. I also don't expect them to be perfect. They're human. It's a case by case basis of course. It would have to be pretty egregious to make me want to judge them. I hope that they are trained well enough to respond with appropriate force to a given situation but how often do they encounter a samurai wannabe?

It seems to me like the procedure he allegedly broke is bunk in the first place. What should the officer have waited for? What if the sword wielder ran into a building a took a hostage before backup could arrive? Police policies should allow for some initiative to prevent situations from going bad to worse. Who are we trying to protect here, sword swinging lunatics or the public?

If the worst thing that Cahir would ever do is to rush in and kill uncooperative sword swinging lunatics then it wouldn't bother me to have him patrolling my streets.
 
PingOfPong said:
It seems to me like the procedure he allegedly broke is bunk in the first place. What should the officer have waited for? What if the sword wielder ran into a building a took a hostage before backup could arrive? Police policies should allow for some initiative to prevent situations from going bad to worse. Who are we trying to protect here, sword swinging lunatics or the public?

If the worst thing that Cahir would ever do is to rush in and kill uncooperative sword swinging lunatics then it wouldn't bother me to have him patrolling my streets.
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There is no "allegedly" - a court has determined that he did not follow his training/procedures.

And as I've asked others who claim to know exactly what the procedures are can you tell me what source you are using that means you can conclude that the procedures and training in question are bunk?
 
This is unbelievable! Another cop has broken procedures when dealing with this sword and meat cleaver wielding madman - in Australia buuuuuuuuttttt.

A police vehicle was used to "block" a man wielding a samurai sword in a confrontation in Melbourne's north-west earlier today.

Police said tonight the man, 36, was uninjured, but dropped the sword and a meat cleaver after the car made "slight' contact with him.

Acting Assistant Commissioner Rod Wilson said it was not common police procedure to use a vehicle to block an offender, but today's action potentially saved lives.

Mr Wilson said the stand-off took place near a busy freeway, and the fact that no one was injured was a credit to the police action.
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I include this simply to illustrate that although police broke procedure it didn't result in death. Seems like a very similar set up to the one we're discussing, the only difference being a bit less bravado.

The full story here
 
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bluesjnr said:
This is unbelievable Another cop has broken procedures when dealing with this sword and meat cleaver wielding madman - in Australia buuuuuuuuttttt.



I include this simply to illustrate that although police broke procedure it didn't result in death. Seems like a very similar set up to the one we're discussing, the only difference being a bit less bravado.

The full story here
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Taylors Lake is to Carlton like Times Square is to Death Valley.
 
Darat said:
From the coroner's verdict it was the police officer's incompetence (to try and summarize) that resulted in someone dying. Why do you salute that incompetence?
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He's alive to continue to do his duty, if he is allowed to do so.

Force Command does not agree with the coroner.
 
lionking said:
He's alive to continue to do his duty, if he is allowed to do so.

...snip...
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Yet his actions put himself, his partner and the public in serious risk. Why you support such actions is quite beyond me.

lionking said:
Force Command does not agree with the coroner.
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According to your article they disagree that the police require more training sessions but they agree that their training was (is?) not adequate and they would be improving it.
 
lionking said:
Taylors Lake is to Carlton like Times Square is to Death Valley.
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I don't understand what this means?

If it means what I think it does are you saying that if it's not a really coolTM and busy place then it is irrelevant? Is it OK for maniacs to walk the streets in Taylors Lake even if they attack passing cars and egg on the police to "harm them".

Like I said I don't understand what you mean. Please explain.
 
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