Wheat is murder? WTH?

[23_Tauri]

I'm diabetic, and all I can add is that I have more trouble controlling my blood glucose if I eat wheat bread than if I don't. Never tried other grains much.

Go figure.

Well it may well do, wheat bread having a fairly high GI (but variable depending on the type of bread), but the OP was about Celiac disease and gluten.

Go figure

 

[JFrankA]

I'm Italian.

Bread. Period. Lots of it.

This whole wheat allergy thing would never happen to an Italian.

 

[23_Tauri]

You're right, thanks. I'm out of my depth, actin' a fool I should have cited my claim, then I wouldn't have misremembered.

Don't worry, I doubt your any more out of your depth than I am on here most of the time.

Ketogenic/gluten-free diets are useful for schizophrenics.
(Full, free text)

"We report the unexpected resolution of longstanding schizophrenic symptoms after starting a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet. After a review of the literature, possible reasons for this include the metabolic consequences from the elimination of gluten from the diet, and the modulation of the disease of schizophrenia at the cellular level."

That's an interesting study and I have read articles about a link between schizophrenia and diet before, albeit from alt med sources so I am curious to read a study from a reputable source.

Like you, I think it's a far cry from 'food sensitivity' (whatever that is ) to a serious disease like schizophrenia.

 

[Ambrosia]

The cultivation of wheat changed the course of human history. Where would we be without it? Yes we have other staples (predominantly rice, which is gluten-free), but scare-mongering about something we've been eating for 10,000 years sounds like prime woo to me.

Pretty much prime woo.

Staple foods are a good source of protein. Thats WHY they are staple foods. From cereals you get Low Biological Value protein, which means that the proteins are not digested by the body unless they are supplemented with other complimentary LBV Proteins.

So you get rice and peas, beans on toast, and suchlike where the proteins in the grain are complimented by proteins in the pulses and your body gets a good source of protein for growth repair and maintenance of cells.

The proteins you get from different grains vary so while you might have trouble with gluten, protein in rice for example is probably fine.

A lot of gluten free specialist foods are made with rice/corn/buckwheat and other flours that don't have gluten.

If it wasn't for gluten bread would be lots different and probably very boring. It's the most important part of the flour from a bakers perspective because of it's properties when it gets wet. (it forms long elastic chains which are ideal for trapping CO2 bubbles) None of the other protein components from other grains do this nearly as well.

 

[chillzero]

Is this another of those "fashionable" conditions to have?

They had two allergy physicians on NPR's Science Friday a couple of weeks ago; they said that rather a small percentage of the people they see complaining of these things actually have them, and that people who do suffer from food allergies find them to be very serious indeed.

Based on the experiences of a close relative, Celiac disease is not easy to diagnose. Symptoms like diarrhea and fatigue aren't specific to it, and their onset can be gradual. All diagnostic tests require you to eat gluten for weeks or months before the tests. In other words, if you have the disease but you have by yourself found a diet that minimizes your symptoms (and I bet we've always had people among us who say that this or that does "not agree with them") , to get diagnosed you need to scratch that and stick with a diet that makes you sick for weeks.

I have been told by a GP that I do not have Coeliac's disease after some blood tests. I don't believe I had my intestines checked though (I've had a series of tests and can't always remember what's what). However I went through months of dietary experimentation, pain, cramps, fatigue and illness to narrow down that both wheat and gluten have a very detrimental effect on my health. It makes me sick for a few days and exhausted for a few more after if I have even a few crumbs. So, my GP and I diagnosed gluten intolerence together, and my diet has been chanegd appropriately, and it is rarely a problem for me now.

It originally came up because I was doubled up several times a day with excrutiating abdominal cramps, and some other toilet-related symptoms.

I meet others who claim to have gluten intolerence, and what they mean is that they get a bit bloated ... maybe a tiny touch of wind, a bit looser - nothing major, so they keep eating wheat and gluten when it's inconvenient for them to do otherwise. It stumps me, and it's a bit like those girls who used to annoy me by complaining about terrible, awful PMT and period cramping - for a little twinge they felt for 5 minutes .... while I was off school regularly for 3 days in agony.

I'm not sure on the reliability of some of the medical tests for allergies. I had some extensive blood work done, which among other things concluded that I have no allergy to penicillin, which almost killed me the last time I was given it.

 

[Oystein]

...
All diagnostic tests require you to eat gluten for weeks or months before the tests. In other words, if you have the disease but you have by yourself found a diet that minimizes your symptoms (and I bet we've always had people among us who say that this or that does "not agree with them") , to get diagnosed you need to scratch that and stick with a diet that makes you sick for weeks.
...

Wrong. The contrary is true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease#Diagnosis

There are two direct ways to detect CD:
- Serological blood tests
- Endoscopy and biopsy of the duodendum (first part of small intestine, right after the stomach)
Additionally, patients ought to try a gluten-free diet for a while to see if the symptoms (which indeed can be rather unspecific) vanish. The biopsy result, too, should improve significantly that way, which is why a gluten-free diet is part of the diagnostic process.

 

[Oystein]

10,000 years is barely enough time to completely adapt to a new food source, afaik. That's barely enough time for anything significant to happen. When they found the Tibetans had adapted to high-altitude over 30,000 years that was big news.
...

I don't think you can compare these two.

By and large, humans don't need to adapt to specific foods. If the Sumerians had not already been adapted well enough to wheat, it would never have become their staple.

You see, humans are omnivores. For the longest time, our hunter-and-gatherer forebearers have tried to eat everything they found, and during the course of the year they may have eaten seeds, fruits, leaves and roots from hundreds of different plants. Humans who grew up in aboriginbal societies still living that lifestyle typically know more than 1000 plants by name, and what they are good or bad for.

The situation that might need some adapting to is not that wheat and some other cereals contain something that isn't so nice, but that a very limited number of food stuffs have become staples year-round.

 

[chillzero]

Wrong. The contrary is true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease#Diagnosis

There are two direct ways to detect CD:
- Serological blood tests
- Endoscopy and biopsy of the duodendum (first part of small intestine, right after the stomach)
Additionally, patients ought to try a gluten-free diet for a while to see if the symptoms (which indeed can be rather unspecific) vanish. The biopsy result, too, should improve significantly that way, which is why a gluten-free diet is part of the diagnostic process.

I had the blood tests, but not the endoscopy (as far as I remember).
The dietary testing involved 2 weeks no gluten, a week with gluten, 2 weeks off again .. to see how symptoms are affected. This was also difficult because I was given next to no guidance on just how many things gluten is in, so cut out bread and pasta, but continued eating, for example, sausages and burgers. I have a huge debt of thanks to Terry and Doubting Stephen here for helping me understand the diet better, and getting through it with more reliable results.

It was not - as you point out - months of eating gluten products, but it was still a very difficult process.

 

[Tatyana]

I have been told by a GP that I do not have Coeliac's disease after some blood tests. I don't believe I had my intestines checked though (I've had a series of tests and can't always remember what's what). However I went through months of dietary experimentation, pain, cramps, fatigue and illness to narrow down that both wheat and gluten have a very detrimental effect on my health. It makes me sick for a few days and exhausted for a few more after if I have even a few crumbs. So, my GP and I diagnosed gluten intolerence together, and my diet has been chanegd appropriately, and it is rarely a problem for me now.

It originally came up because I was doubled up several times a day with excrutiating abdominal cramps, and some other toilet-related symptoms.

I meet others who claim to have gluten intolerence, and what they mean is that they get a bit bloated ... maybe a tiny touch of wind, a bit looser - nothing major, so they keep eating wheat and gluten when it's inconvenient for them to do otherwise. It stumps me, and it's a bit like those girls who used to annoy me by complaining about terrible, awful PMT and period cramping - for a little twinge they felt for 5 minutes .... while I was off school regularly for 3 days in agony.

I'm not sure on the reliability of some of the medical tests for allergies. I had some extensive blood work done, which among other things concluded that I have no allergy to penicillin, which almost killed me the last time I was given it.

The problem with allergy testing is that you have had to have a significant exposure to the offending substance within something like the last month to generate antibodies/immunoglobulins to the substance.


Immunology is a relatively new field and previous 'RAST' testing hasn't always been used correctly, especially by GPs.

That they still use the term RAST indicates that there knowledge is about 20 years behind.

I would have to check on this, but I also think that people can develop sudden 'de novo' hypersensitivity reactions to substances, it often takes more than one exposure before your immune system goes a bit bonkers/cytokine storm.

I think the issue with things like coeliac disease is that it is an autoimmune disease, and all autoimmune diseases appear to be more prevalent in the developed world.

I personally favor the 'clean house' hypothesis, although I really doubt that it will be just this one factor that is responsible for things like the increase in allergies, asthma, arthritis and coeliac disease etc.

 

[Oystein]

...
It was not - as you point out - months of eating gluten products, but it was still a very difficult process.

I didn't mean to imply that the process is easy. My best friend was diagnosed with CD in 2004 - a time when neither of us had ever heard about it, so she definitely did not fell for a fad then. She had several of those unspecific symptons on and off for months, and when CD appeared as a possibility, it was still months to go until it was confirmed. I remember, too, the difficulties in the first years to learn about where gluten is found, and adapt behaviour. Little things like asking restaurant managers already when making a reservation if some gluten-free meals can be arranged.

Things have improved vastly in the just under 7 years since - back then, she had to read long lists of ingredients on many packages, today the gluten-free products are readily labelled as such. Restaurants, too, are more and more aware of CD and some other dietary problems some of their guests experience, and offer solutions.


But oh how fondly we remember our breakfast feats of 2003, with towers of pancakes that rivalled Babel...........

 

[chillzero]

I didn't mean to imply that the process is easy.

oh ... I didn't mean to impy that you implied it ...

But oh how fondly we remember our breakfast feats of 2003, with towers of pancakes that rivalled Babel...........

I have a new love for buckwheat pancakes.

My biggest problem has been people saying things like "Oh, you can eat that, there's no wheat flour ..... just self-raising flour" ... or at the weekend, this idiot woman in Paris insisting that I musy not eat the buckwheat galettes, but must eat the sweet crepes, because they have 'white flour'. When asked what was in white flour if it wasn't wheat, she would only answer 'flour'. We didn't eat there.

 

[Ambrosia]

My biggest problem has been people saying things like "Oh, you can eat that, there's no wheat flour ..... just self-raising flour" ... We didn't eat there.

Good!

Front of house, clueless, waiting staff is one of my greatest pet peeves in the restaurant industry.

People than run the restaurants tend to want pretty faces to wait tables, who are willing to work lots for little money. Here, that generally translates into employing "gap year" students, people that are on short stay visas and want to travel and see the country, or people from places where £1 translates into lots of their local currency. I can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of waiting staff I've met who made a point to find out what the fod they were serving people actually was so that when a customer asks, what's this they actually had an answer more helpful than "uhhhh, I dunno, I'll go ask the chef"

"Whats todays special" "It's exactly the same as it was when you asked me 10 minutes ago..."

er anyway. The only reasons why wheat flour is used so much are economic ones. Aside from bread, and from choux pastry, (There is actually no such thing as gluten free bread, it's gluten free savoury cake) wheat flour is worse than the gluten free alternatives for just about everything because of the gluten.

Cake or biscuits particularly are better products when made with rice flour. If using flour as a thickening agent for white sauce or soup when you make a roux it's the starch in the flour that does the thickening, and just about every grain going can be ground into a starchy flour. The taste can be different, although there are blends of gluten free flours which are high starch and a similar flavour to wheat flour, just much much more expensive.

From the kitchen side of things there's been a huge increase in people requesting dietary requirement specialities in the time I've been cooking. When I first started in the early 90's we saw an odd vegetarian once a week or so. Today it's rare for a day to go past without having several different customers who request all kinds of gluten free/dairy free/low carb/sugar free etc foods.

 

[Tatyana]

I had the blood tests, but not the endoscopy (as far as I remember).
The dietary testing involved 2 weeks no gluten, a week with gluten, 2 weeks off again .. to see how symptoms are affected. This was also difficult because I was given next to no guidance on just how many things gluten is in, so cut out bread and pasta, but continued eating, for example, sausages and burgers. I have a huge debt of thanks to Terry and Doubting Stephen here for helping me understand the diet better, and getting through it with more reliable results.

It was not - as you point out - months of eating gluten products, but it was still a very difficult process.

Endoscopy is quite hideous, I would have thought you would remember it.

There is an issue with modern medicine that does rely very heavily on laboratory medicine.

Sometimes this is a really good thing, other times it is really stupid, there isn't anything wrong with making a diagnosis based on the clinical evidence.

If your symptoms are relieved by not eating gluten, do you really need a test to confirm or deny this?

I think not.

I have developed quite horrid hayfever in the last three-four years.

My IgE levels are always elevated, yet no specific antigen has yet been identified.

Is it really necessary for me to demand more allergy tests when my GP and I have finally found that an old fashioned, first generation (and cheap) anti-histamine taken at bed time seems to sort out a lot of my symptoms?

No, there is no need, as it is highly unlikely I will ever be able to avoid any of the environmental triggers.

 

[chillzero]

Endoscopy is quite hideous, I would have thought you would remember it.

Yeah - I don't think I did. I had some other invasive treatments for other things, but sometimes they all meld into one cloud of 'yucky stuff I've been through' and I can't filter out the details.

If your symptoms are relieved by not eating gluten, do you really need a test to confirm or deny this?

Well no ... it just would have been nice for the 5 minute blood test to have sorted out what was up, saving me months of hell.

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

Don't worry, I doubt your any more out of your depth than I am on here most of the time.


That's an interesting study and I have read articles about a link between schizophrenia and diet before, albeit from alt med sources so I am curious to read a study from a reputable source.

Like you, I think it's a far cry from 'food sensitivity' (whatever that is ) to a serious disease like schizophrenia.

I have worked on a study on schizophrenics and a certain compound, which it was hoped would prove a better treatment than existing, and diet was factored in, because the study was particularly interested in why schizophrenics often gather their visceral fat on the lower abdomen. Not why they get fat in the first place, but why it usually gathers where it does.

Oftentimes (not always) schizophrenics who are completely normal weight will have, basically, most or even all their body fat concentrated on an area on the lower abdomen. Is it the medication that causes this? Or the disease? We don't know, so it was factored in as a secondary endpoint because among other things, it was hoped that this compound would not cause weight gain, which many schizophrenia medications do and I know the clinician was curious to see if fat would re-distribute. (Unfortunately, most of the time, the tools are blunt: changes in BMI do not say anything about where fat is located, etc.)

I have also come across the claims about gluten and/or wheat and schizophrenia before, but I can't remember seeing any compelling evidence. I have also seen it blamed for Aspergers and autism, although when it comes to autism I think there have been succesful trials with ketogenic diet. (Which does not, in itself, infer that there is anything to the gluten claim, of course.)

 

[Joey McGee]

I have also come across the claims about gluten and/or wheat and schizophrenia before, but I can't remember seeing any compelling evidence. I have also seen it blamed for Aspergers and autism, although when it comes to autism I think there have been succesful trials with ketogenic diet. (Which does not, in itself, infer that there is anything to the gluten claim, of course.)

Yeah the "case report and a review of the literature" is compelling but not absolute. For me, it does lend credence to the theory that gluten causes problems for some because it's evolutionarily novel because you could say that ketogenic diets are closer to "paleo" Am I out of my depth again

 

[Oystein]

oh ... I didn't mean to impy that you implied it ...

Just making sure

I have a new love for buckwheat pancakes.

Oh I preferred buckwheat pancakes over wheat ones even before my friend discovered her CD. She has now a favourite restauruant that makes galettes, but strangely she now makes her own breakfast pancakes with some gluten-free ersatz flour that isn't buckwheat (something based on corn, I think), and frankly they are not quite as fluffy and heavenly as the stuff she made back in the days...

My biggest problem has been people saying things like "Oh, you can eat that, there's no wheat flour ..... just self-raising flour" ... or at the weekend, this idiot woman in Paris insisting that I musy not eat the buckwheat galettes, but must eat the sweet crepes, because they have 'white flour'. When asked what was in white flour if it wasn't wheat, she would only answer 'flour'. We didn't eat there.

Haven't you run into nice surprises, too? When I invited A. to my favourite local restaurant (we live nearly 500km apart), and she asked at the beginning if they have something void of gluten, the waiter (who is the boss there!) regretted that I had not announced this need when I made the reservation, otherwise he would have arranged for every meal of the day to have a gluten-free option.
In Budapest we found a pizzeria that offered everything on the menue gluten-free, and these pizzas were really good!

 

[chillzero]

Two doors up from the idiot in Paris we found a great little creperie that answered our questions with ease and confidence, and I had a lovely time there instead. I have found a few nice surprises but on a smaller scale than those you mention. The place my boyfriend took me to for Valentine's changed their dessert menu when he was making his reservation, when he pointed out that the rest of the meal was gluten free, but not the dessert - and what kind of Valentine's dinner can't finish with a lush dessert?

 

[Tiktaalik]

I don't think you can compare these two.

By and large, humans don't need to adapt to specific foods. If the Sumerians had not already been adapted well enough to wheat, it would never have become their staple.

This is an important point that I often make to people who give me the "we've only had 10,000 years to adapt to wheat" line.

We must have previously been eating the ancestors of today's wheat or we wouldn't have tried to cultivate it. People probably tried to cultivate plants they were familiar with and knew how to prepare first. It doesn't make sense that people would attempt to cultivate plants they had no experience with. So, it's likely people had been eating wheat for a long, long time prior to cultivation. It's just grass. We probably ate anything starchy would could get our hands on, including grass seed.

 

[Joey McGee]

This is an important point that I often make to people who give me the "we've only had 10,000 years to adapt to wheat" line.

We must have previously been eating the ancestors of today's wheat or we wouldn't have tried to cultivate it. People probably tried to cultivate plants they were familiar with and knew how to prepare first. It doesn't make sense that people would attempt to cultivate plants they had no experience with. So, it's likely people had been eating wheat for a long, long time prior to cultivation. It's just grass. We probably ate anything starchy would could get our hands on, including grass seed.

There is an elaborate debate, what is indisputable is that wheat is the most recent (major) addition to our diet and it's easy to see how this would contribute to a widespread intolerance. The debate is summarized very well here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet#Rationale_and_evolutionary_assumptions