What's your theory about 9/11?

Oh and further your example offers no solid information comparable to that which you are claiming for 9/11. You offer an interpretation of an image that can not be varified by objective means. You offer no way of showing if your "discovery" was indeed a concealed message, or just something you yourself are applying to thematic tones.
You rename the picture by telling us it must be "The triumph of badness", but apart from ignoring half the words of the actual title you already gave us, you give no reason which rule dictates the title must change.

Again, I see no signs of analysis, or methodology, or anything to seperate you from any other quack who wanted to prove William Sickert was Jack the Ripper, or that the Olympic Games were full of Illuminati Messages.

Please stop playing silly games on a subject that connects to the lives and feelings of many. You may pretend you are a joker, but you are more of a cad than a card.
 
Oh and further your example offers no solid information ...........


I could have explain the rules at once, but I wanted to give you a chance to show the forum, that you already know the secrets of the painters.

You must know it, because you decided, that I am not an iconolgist.

So thank you for the "last chance" you gave me.

So I will tell you the rules of that painting, if you give me a "go on".


I just made me a second cup of black coffee. Awaiting your start signal, Sire.

regards Hans
 
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I could have explain the rules at once

Yes.
Several days ago when you started posting you could have. Instead you have avoided it now. You could even have posted them in that post. So go ahead.

By the way, it is worth noting that I have not claimed to know the secrets of the painters, I have pointed out you have shown reason to think there are any secrets in the film, or the painiting you discussed. You have told us you saw something, but not shown us what, why, or how we can varify its meaning. You did not even make the meaning or content of the supposed message clear. Given that it seemingly has no worth as an example you can hardly be surprised by comments.

Your apparent motive doesn't make sense either. You claimed to have given us the rules in an example, but didn't, on the off chance that I pointed out they were missing?

OK... Go ahead. Post the rules already. I'm still waiting, more fool me.


Oh and why do you say "the rules of that painting"? Surely the rules can be applied to ANY painting to discover if there is a hidden message? You are not about to spoil this all by claiming the rules are unique to each painting or film are you?
 
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Now, I will go on :

The most important thing is how can I decide, that there is something in it ?

The painters use opening signals, to catch your attantion. If a master painter paint something wrong is a strong hint, that he wants you to go deeper inside the painting.

In this case it is the guy in the center of the painting. Something is with his hairs. They are black in spite of all the others and they look like a long wig.

From the distance, I see the wellknown symbol of a mirror axis: it is an "X". formed by parts of his "hair" and the wooden cross. All painters and drawers know this very old sighn. His body is in a position, as if he want to rotate the wood cross against clockwise turn.

So there is a symbol for a mirroraxis and a hint to mirror the left side of the painting to the right side. The mirroraxis he told me, is exactly in the middle of the painting. So I followed his hints and mirrowed the left half painting to the right side and I got a new painting which tells me the truth.
It is not the "goodness" which has win.

Please remember that this mirrowed pic is visible from our subconscious all the time while whatching the painting, without our knowledge ! The subconscious identified that object as the face of a cattle, because of the nose. Albrecht Dürer shows it in "nose of a cattle".
This is only a little part of the rules how to find the intention of the painter. This mirror technic is one of the "tricks" they use. One of many.

pic top left : the mirror axis top right : this is what your subconscious will see
pic low : Dürer "Nose of a cattle"
..
 

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... So go ahead.
OK... Go ahead. Post the rules already. I'm still waiting, more fool me.

Oh and why do you say "the rules of that painting"? Surely the rules can be applied to ANY painting to discover if there is a hidden message? You are not about to spoil this all by claiming the rules are unique to each painting or film are you?


That sounds more friendly now.

As I told befor : There are general rules , but every painter has his own style and most of them put own developed "rule extensions" on top, which where assimilated by the others or not.
 
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Thats enough for the moment, otherwise you have to pay for it :D

NEXT COMING UP :

1.) The full message of FMJ

2.) How did Kubrick work, what are his rules ?


Regards Hans Peper
 
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That sounds more friendly now.

As I told befor : There are general rules , but every painter has his own style and most of them put own developed "rule extensions" on top, which where assimilated by the others or not.


Oh for Pete's sake. Please show us the exact rules that apply to Full Metal Jacket, that prove that a bunch of burning concrete in a place that is supposed to be a war ridden citymeans that S.K. knew about 9/11.

Then please tell us how he knew, and why he decided to tell only iconologists, and not use a more obvious symbol like, uhm, you know, actually showing TWO towers instead of one bloody burning concrete pillar.

Then please tell us why you are the only iconologist™ that sees the reference to 9/11.

ETA:

Quoting the man himself:

"Oh, God, no. I'm trying to be true to the material. You know, there's another extraordinary accident. Cowboy is dying, and in the background there's something that looks very much like the monolith in 2001. And it just happened to be there. The whole area of combat was one complete area - it actually exists. One of the things I tried to do was give you a sense of where you were, where everything else was. Which, in war movies, is something you frequently don't get. The terrain of small-unit action is really the story of the action. And this is something we tried to make beautifully clear: there's a low wall, there's the building space. And once you get in there, everything is exactly where it actually was. No cutting away, no cheating. So it came down to where the sniper would be and where the marines were. When Cowboy is shot, they carry him around the corner - to the very most logical shelter. And there, in the background, was this thing, this monolith. I'm sure some people will think that there was some calculated reference to 2001, but honestly, it was just there." -Stanley Kubrick, Interview with The Rolling Stone
 
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...You say you saw an opening symbol. This is not a rule. It does not explain how you established something was intended as a symbol. It does not explain why it was a symbol. It does not explain what analysis was required to recognise the symbol. It is not a rule.

You say the symbol told you what to do. But you do not explain this. You give no rules for establishing what truth was visible.
...and instead discusses the social context of images, not hidden codes.


Did I answer your questions?

The social context is :

The protestantic church of that time uses the same tools as the katholic did.

Generating fear in the hearts of the people.

Told by the painter of this altarpiece, dedicated to other painters who will have a view on it.
 
...Then please tell us why you are the only iconologist that sees the reference to 9/11.


No one had a thought about, that Kubrick used that in a movie !
That is quite new. They only have a look at paintings.

To the Rolling stone interwiew : I wrote something befor to that.

Now I was sitting here, fighting with Mr. Tomtom about hours, I am 59 years old and need a time out. (T)

Hans Peper
 
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In the meanwhile :

please have a look at my postings #1098 and #1106 and try to understand how it works.
 
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No one had a thought about, that Kubrick used that in a movie !
That is quite new. They only have a look at paintings.

To the Rolling stone interwiew : I wrote something befor to that.

Now I was sitting here, fighting with Mr. Tomtom about hours, I am 59 years old and need a time out. (T)

Hans Peper


Oh come on. That's a lame excuse.

And you still haven't answered my questions, the most important, in fact the question that blows all of this to pieces:

-How did he know about 9/11?

-Why did he use such a lame symbol for it?

I mean I could think of a thousand better ways of depicting the WTC (or future lack thereof!). Like actually depicting two towers/burning pieces of concrete/whatever...

Besides, why 9/11? Is it not more logical to simply see it as a funny reference to 2001? I mean, come on.

But please answer this. How did a director set in England, in fact the one director farthest away from mainstream hollywood, the man that practically worked alone (compared to the rest of the industry) and with a small group of people with whom he collaborated throughout his movies, have knowledge of 9/11?
 
In the meanwhile :

please have a look at my postings #1098 and #1106 and try to understand how it works.

I'll play. Please cite some sources, about the "rules" you've mentioned. Opening symbols and such.
"All painters and drawers know this very old sighn. His body is in a position, as if he want to rotate the wood cross against clockwise turn....that this mirrowed pic is visible from our subconscious all the time while whatching the painting..."

What knowledge of the subcoscious did a painter of the 1600s have?

Did he also know about 9/11?

Also, if My Toan (do we have any Vietnamese members here to verify the meaning?) means "my town" (isn't NY a CITY?) then why do we see the burning WTC-monolith when Cowboy is dragged away from the My Toan sign? I mean, shouldn't, in your theory, our subconscious get some connection between my town and the burning thingamajig? Why is the burning "tower" not visible in the my town shots?


Basic logic destroys this.
 
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Now, I will go on :

The most important thing is how can I decide, that there is something in it ?

No, the question is "Is there a MESSAGE" not "something".


The painters use opening signals, to catch your attantion. If a master painter paint something wrong is a strong hint, that he wants you to go deeper inside the painting.
Nope sorry that is not a rule. That is not even a rule of thumb. What you describe of as "hints" and things being "wrong" could be mistakes or artistic choices. That the painting may have images on multiple layers of significance is not the same as suggesting there are puzzles, riddles or messages.

In this case it is the guy in the center of the painting. Something is with his hairs. They are black in spite of all the others and they look like a long wig.
No, different is not "wrong". Different is as likely to mean "this figure is standing out to attract your eye" for exactly the reasons you would expect. They are the focus of the painting.

From the distance, I see the wellknown symbol of a mirror axis: it is an "X". formed by parts of his "hair" and the wooden cross. All painters and drawers know this very old sighn.

Yes, it's almost as if artists consider composition in ways that are pleasing to look at. This is also a happy by-product of the symmetry you are about to dicuss. You are applying significance for which there is no evidence beyond style and convention.

His body is in a position, as if he want to rotate the wood cross against clockwise turn.

So there is a symbol for a mirroraxis and a hint to mirror the left side of the painting to the right side. The mirroraxis he told me, is exactly in the middle of the painting. So I followed his hints and mirrowed the left half painting to the right side and I got a new painting
Yes.

which tells me the truth.
No. A second image hidden in this way is not all that uncommon, nor is it a message or truth. In modern parlance it is an "Easter Egg".

It is not the "goodness" which has win.
Not in the "Easter Egg". You applied a mirror to make the new image. Are you really all that surprised to leard that the reflection of good being triumphant is that evil may triumph?

Please remember that this mirrowed pic is visible from our subconscious all the time while whatching the painting, without our knowledge !
Again. Not entirely true. You will notice there is a line of symmetry that might be applied, but that is to reveal a secondary image. One that is considered an inferior image, a nice little surprise for added money.

This is only a little part of the rules how to find the intention of the painter. This mirror technic is one of the "tricks" they use. One of many.
Oh goody. So you still aren't even trying to answer the question then. Still no definition of methodology or process, just an observation that some old paintings have easter eggs framed as a pretencious lesson in your superior understanding?

Okay. You had your chance. You have not shown what was asked for. You did not show there was hidden information in the painting. You did not show a method of analysis to identify meaningful messages. You did not show any rules for discounting coincidental images. You did not show anything that can be applied to any other painting but that one.

As the Mirror rule is not applicable to the film, as symmmetry is not applicable to the film, as your methodology used here is not applicable to the film, may I ask why you chose this example?

Oh, and I thought this was to be an example of iconology. Should you not have discussed how the icon, the revealed image, offeres a cultural, historical, or social significance over and beyond "the inverse of good being triumphant is evil triumphant"? Should your example of iconological analysis not have included at a bare minimum some iconology?
 
Now I was sitting here, fighting with Mr. Tomtom about hours,

It is a little odd you seem to think this was a fight. I'm asking reasonable questions until you answer them. If you think this a fight then feel free to win at any time by answering the questions raised much earlier in the thread and repeated since. You know, actually stating your methodology (as applicable to the film itself) as well as referencing the journals or text books where we might validate your methods.
 
...

Also, if My Toan (do we have any Vietnamese members here to verify the meaning?) means "my town" (isn't NY a CITY?) then why do we see the burning WTC-monolith when Cowboy is dragged away from the My Toan sign? I mean, shouldn't, in your theory, our subconscious get some connection between my town and the burning thingamajig? Why is the burning "tower" not visible in the my town shots?


Basic logic destroys this.

I think I've figured it out. Hear me out on this one, I think I've got the solution.

The monolith tower is displaced from My Toan My City New York because it was beamed to Planet X! Think about it, Judy Wood's energy beam weapon thing is actually a transportation device! Further evidence is, back to 2001, the soldiers around the monotower are the apes in 2001! AHA! And how do we know the apes in 2001 are on earth?! WE DON'T THEY'RE ON PLANET-X!!1!1!

Get dusty on this one.

;)


No offense, Hans. Ein Bisschen Spaß muss sein!
 
... "Easter Egg"...

Or pareidolia and apophenia.


It is a little odd you seem to think this was a fight. I'm asking reasonable questions until you answer them. If you think this a fight then feel free to win at any time by answering the questions raised much earlier in the thread and repeated since. You know, actually stating your methodology (as applicable to the film itself) as well as referencing the journals or text books where we might validate your methods.

Yes, this is the way most conspiracy theorists see things, in my experience. It's this weird us vs. them thing. They don't understand that differing opinions or understandings don't mean war. Ironically, these are the people constantly going on about how their theory has to given equal weight. :rolleyes:

This also applies to religious topics.
 
Iconological analysis of a Charles E. Martin New Yorker cartoon from the early 1960’s, ~40 years before 9/11, ~20 years before FMJ.

Planes will hit the New York Twin Towers, explode, and the Towers will catch on fire. A little girl can’t hold her arms above her for forty years and so the Towers will collapse.

cartooonicono_zps40389d5e.jpg


KATZ’S DELI is my favorite New York City Deli.
K = Kookaburra
A= Asp
T= Trout
Z = Zebra
S = Sloop
Therefore the city is New York.
 
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