What's wrong with this rant? Evolution vs. Creation

[pgwenthold]

I get a little confused while flipping back and forth between considering entropy as a property of a system as a whole and as a property of an organism. Taking your advice and, rather than taking a strictly biological approach, including physics, it gets worse: is entropy a property which can even be meaningfully attributed to a single particle?

Not in the least.

Microcanonical theory (what you use when you start looking at isolated reactants) has very different characteristics than thermodynamics.

One thing to consider, how can you think about thermodynamics in a region where temperature is undefined?

 

[hammegk]

"Want" is a very key word for me. Not only do I define "conscious want," but I also define "biological want."

And why does the "want" stop at the beginning of dna-rna biology; perhaps "what-is" "wants".

.... Because energy resources are relatively finite, and probably dwindling (according to the belief that the universe is headed toward "heat death"),

Unknown.

.... management of energy resources is the critical biological need which should translate into conscious needs. ...

Let me fix that for you: ".... management of energy resources is the critical need of "what-is", and which eventually translates into conscious needs.".

Perhaps that's a reasonable description of ID.

 

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

IMO, the "complexity" issue is an extremely important one, and I whole-heartedly agree that "... complexity needs to be both rigorously defined and measurable." To that end, rather than take a strictly biological approach, let's include physics.

very good! electrodynamics in physics is very important!

Not only do things tend to go from order to disorder, but information inherent within a system tends to be lost. Let's look at the fire under the pot for a moment. Suppose that four cedar logs are burning and each log has two knots. We could even have the knots in specific orientations - on opposite sides or one below the other. Also, as with all logs, tree rings which identify growth can be seen. Now, as fire consumes the logs, the knots and the tree rings disappear. The number and placement of knots, as well as the number of tree rings indicating the tree's age is suddenly lost forever. Eventually, even the fact that four logs have been consumed is gone. From the residue ash, you may be able to determine that cedar wood was burned, but how many logs and how many knots existed on each log as well as what pattern of tree rings existed would be totally obliterated. This highlights the 3rd facet of entropy: with increased entropy, information is lost.

Jak,

Very good thinking, but, imho, one major assumption I see here in the 3rd law or "3rd facet of entropy" or more properly "entropy change" is that yes, there is "change" but certainly not "complete loss" or waste, it is released in heat AND >>electromagnetic energy<< yes Electromagnetic energy release! and traces of this exist in the ashes and in the EM field of the earth. JUst because we can not "see" it does not mean it is not there. These trees leave EM (electromagnetic) fingerprints behind. if you consider how much energy could really be harnessed from just 1Kg of fuel in wood, that is if we could utilize the energy completely then the energy "loss" isuue would also be gone. The real issue here again is that we do not see all the interactions throughout our complex system. we do not care to because we are collectively lazy and seperatist little creatures in our culture. Our scientific culture and our greed and monetary establishments perpetuate these non linearitys to take advange of them. Thus we do not know how to utilize these froms collectively or conservatively! energy is neither created nor destroyed it is converted. Did you know that when a forrest fire crowns into a huge inferno it starts releasing thousands of times the energy of most nuclear weapons that is HUGE energy? yes THOUSANDS! So it converts. We should include all sciences in ALL discussion like you have said. So, I hope we continue to because this will prevent this "loss" through better communication between all fields of the sciences. I really like your inclusion of physics here, bio is notand should not be "set apart" really nothing is set apart as you have said. It is only done to control in fear.

Gdnpd

 

[JAK]

I get a little confused while flipping back and forth between considering entropy as a property of a system as a whole and as a property of an organism. Taking your advice and, rather than taking a strictly biological approach, including physics, it gets worse: is entropy a property which can even be meaningfully attributed to a single particle?

Yes, entropy is "... a property which can even be meaningfully attributed to a single particle."

When a hydrogen atom absorbs a photon (heat or light), the electron jumps to a higher "orbit" or "shell." The natural law says that the hydrogen proton likes to remain "cuddly" with its electron. Too much energy, and the electron will be torn from its "arms." So the atom sheds the higher energy state by re-emitting the photon. In doing so, the hydrogen atom attains a lower energy state and hangs onto the electron. This nuclear "game of hot potato" keeps the photons flying outward everywhere. This is the core of entropy: atoms seek a low energy state by shedding energy as photons (http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node151.html). As a result, energy is shared. High energy gets thrown out; high energy travels from high energy sources to low ones, and equilibrium is the eventual result.

On a macro level, this directly relates to the Sun shedding light which the Earth, being directly in the path of the radiation, is forced to absorb. Since the Earth also sheds this extra energy, convective thunderstorms and low pressure systems develop as heat is transferred to the upper atmosphere and into outer space.

Higher energy, bombarding the atom, may also kick out the electon "teddy bear" leaving the atom ionized. This is another form of entropy at the particle level. The loose electrons and ions form the basis of electricity as well as ionic and covalent bonding.

The mechanical form of entropy, such as beating an egg until the yolk and egg white are no longer distinguishable, is still based upon the lower forms. If we muster energy to beat the egg, it is born of energy created in the mitochondria of our muscle and brain cells where the Krebs cycle pumps energy out of ADP and ATP translations (http://www.bmb.leeds.ac.uk/illingworth/oxphos/).

Without entropy at the particle level, atoms would absorb energy - like tiny "black holes." Without entropy, energy would never be shared, and the universe would freeze in place. The Sun would not shine, there would be no rain, and life, as we know it, could not exist.

The Big Bang was a manifestation of entropy - high energy exploding outward into the void of no energy.

 

[Goddoesnotplaydice]

Jak wrote;

The Big Bang was a manifestation of entropy - high energy exploding outward into the void of no energy.

I will not say that I totally agree with the "big bang" theory as it has been previously explained to us by some cosmologists etc.

Some have said that for the "big bang" to have occurred as it was originally explained, the 'matter' cluster" would have had to reach a state of thermal equilibrium. This "static" state, I think may defy some of the thermo laws. So, an outside force or “Creator” must be included in the theory. e.g. some outside entity initiated the thermo / magneto catalyst reaction/interaction.

Yes, I agree Jak, as you stated these "thermo aspects" can be attributed to a single particle, and as you also wrote:
Yes, entropy is "... a property which can even be meaningfully attributed to a single particle."

Yes, although more importunately and by interrelation with a larger systems multiple levels, this 'Entropy change" is also part of a "Grand" system we do not yet fully understand. The B or magnetic fields now come into play. These we may not "see" like a photon but they are certainly playing a role at multiple levels of the overall system. These B fields are certainly often overlooked and also very powerful. There are continuing studies on these newer manifold or coin fold and string theories but the deep "math" and conjecture there still eludes me as well as others. these conservations of angular momentum and B field interactions at all levels from protium (H) out thru "local" gravitation to our solar system then out to the whole universes' system still gives me great thoughts to ponder. There is still so much to learn ! Magneto-dynamics play a huge role as I feel we will all soon learn.

Here is an excerpt from; http://www.answers.com/topic/hydrogen-atom-2
for us to ponder:

• The spin of the electron has a magnetic moment attached to it. Even when there is no external magnetic field, within the inertial frame of the moving electron the electric field of the nucleus partly acts like a magnetic field. This is also an effect of special relativity, and it leads to the so-called "spin-orbit coupling", i.e. an influence of the electron's orbital motion around the nucleus onto its spin.



gdnpd