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What's wrong with this rant? Evolution vs. Creation

I'd say a large number of people -- rightly or wrongly -- disagree.

Physics and chemistry make no claims as to "why" -- why 3 quarks make baryons, why na & cl combined are salty, etc. Nor does geology import meaning to continental drift. Yet future behaviors in these sciences, given a description of boundry conditions, can be predicted, in cases fully deterministically for all intents and purposes .

Evolution is a narrative discussing life, and it's documented drift towards increasing complexity, yet contends the process to have no reason, purpose, or intent.
 
hammegk said:
I'd say a large number of people -- rightly or wrongly -- disagree.
No doubt. A surprisingly large number of people accept stuff like bigfoot, alien abduction, and the lost city of Atlantis, too. Whether they do so rightly or wrongly is precisely what counts; not how many of them there are. Don't you think?

Evolution is a narrative discussing life, and it's documented drift towards increasing complexity, yet contends the process to have no reason, purpose, or intent.
The second part of that seems like a bit of a non-sequitur to the first. And I don't think a convincing case has been made for an overall trend toward greater complexity anyway, as I indicated earlier in the thread.
 
Dymanic said:
No doubt. A surprisingly large number of people accept stuff like bigfoot, alien abduction, and the lost city of Atlantis, too. Whether they do so rightly or wrongly is precisely what counts; not how many of them there are. Don't you think?
In a perfect world, no doubt. I also have no doubt this isn't a perfect world. Pyrrhic Victories may lead to actual losses.

As to bigfoot and aliens, do you suppose they have any interest in our discussion? ;) Those dead Atlanteans? Hmmm. Probably not.


The second part of that seems like a bit of a non-sequitur to the first. And I don't think a convincing case has been made for an overall trend toward greater complexity anyway, as I indicated earlier in the thread.
And as I've mentioned previously, which case of de-evolution would you care to discuss?
 
Originally posted by hammegk

In a perfect world, no doubt. I also have no doubt this isn't a perfect world. Pyrrhic Victories may lead to actual losses.
So you think the best overall strategy would be to concede to the massed hordes the most central tenet of biology so as to increase the chances of salvaging what we can of chemistry, geology, and the rest?
which case of de-evolution would you care to discuss?
Maybe you'd like to start us off with the example you find most compelling?
 
Dymanic said:
So you think the best overall strategy would be to concede to the massed hordes the most central tenet of biology so as to increase the chances of salvaging what we can of chemistry, geology, and the rest?
Er, no, I didn't realize we needed to salvage chem et al. Those subjects are all doing just fine (well, would be, if schools would teach them and worry less about condoms & cucumbers).

At college level, no problems I'm aware of ... well, remedial hs courses aside I guess.

As to"evolution" being "the most central tenet of biology", that's a stretch ... mutation and inheritance genetics are more suitable "central tenets" at lower levels of instruction.



Maybe you'd like to start us off with the example you find most compelling?
Sorry. I know of none.
 
Originally posted by hammegk
Sorry. I know of none
There are a couple of assumptions running here which might bear closer examination.

The first is that presenting examples of de-volution would be necessary to support the claim that no overall trend toward greater complexity in biological forms exists. If only a small number of all changes are in the direction of (what might arguably be regarded as) complexity, and if only a small number of those are viable, then the modal form could remain unchanged even without 'de-evolution'.

The second is that the term: complexity has been (or can be) defined crisply enough to permit the above discussion to even take place. A snippet for your consideration:

"...equating genomic complexity with genome length in base pairs gives rise to a conundrum (known as the C-value paradox) because large variations in genomic complexity (in particular in eukaryotes) seem to bear little relation to the differences in organismic complexity."

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/9/4463
 
Dymanic said:
There are a couple of assumptions running here which might bear closer examination.

The first is that presenting examples of de-volution would be necessary to support the claim that no overall trend toward greater complexity in biological forms exists.
IMO, neither necessary nor sufficient. Examples would be interesting, however.


The second is that the term: complexity has been (or can be) defined crisply enough to permit the above discussion to even take place. A snippet for your consideration:

"...equating genomic complexity with genome length in base pairs gives rise to a conundrum (known as the C-value paradox) because large variations in genomic complexity (in particular in eukaryotes) seem to bear little relation to the differences in organismic complexity."

The fact that our understanding of dna is in its infancy does not, imo, detract from the morphologically obvious conclusion (from the fossil record) that life on this planet has tended towards more and more -- dare I say it -- "complex" forms.

Using this trend, and absolutely factual mutation/inheritance, to conclude all life traces back to single ancestor is logical, yet not fully-justified by existing data, for me at least.

And thanks for the info; I'll do some reading on the C-value paradox. :)
 
Originally posted by hammegk
IMO, neither necessary nor sufficient. Examples would be interesting, however.
It might prove a bit of a challenge just to clarify exactly what would qualify as such an example. We could actually turn things around, and ask whether a decrease in complexity (temporarily setting aside the issue of defining that) would be acceptable as an indicator of 'devolution'.

Again from the article I linked:

"To make a case for or against a trend in the evolution of complexity in biological evolution, complexity needs to be both rigorously defined and measurable. A recent information-theoretic (but intuitively evident) definition identifies genomic complexity with the amount of information a sequence stores about its environment."

I like the way that acknowledges that what we find intuitively evident is of central importance. Unfortunately, this often turns out to mean: heavily front-loaded with hidden assumptions. Following intuition, we might be inclined to begin by observing various organisms and grading their complexity -- their evolvedness -- on the basis of morphologically obvious features: number of eyes, legs, antennae; range and sophistication of function of each feature, etc. It may be quite intuitive to equate complexity with evolvedness or sophistication, but there may be more to it than that.

Twenty-five years ago, a considerable chunk of a computer programmer's attention was often devoted to finding elegant ways to make economical use of system resources. The end user was unlikely to appreciate the skill, effort, and creativity involved in the loving stroking of code until it took up the smallest possible space on disk and in memory. In the age of teraflops and gigabytes, this is becoming a lost art. I propose that it would be reasonable to consider the results of such efforts to represent a greater degree of sophistication (evolvedness?) than solutions to the same problems that involve more lines of code.

In other words, where it easier to design things that are complicated than it is to design things that are simple -- and where simplicity offers significant benefits -- simply counting structural elements may not be the most reliable way to determine which is the more complex design.

On the other hand, achieving the same functionality through fewer structures might actually be considered more complicated from some perspective in at least some instances, since this often involves taking multiple considerations into account simultaneously.

So is the Rube Goldberg toaster more a more evolved design than the one I use -- or less?
 
Dymanic said:
Again from the article I linked:

"To make a case for or against a trend in the evolution of complexity in biological evolution, complexity needs to be both rigorously defined and measurable. A recent information-theoretic (but intuitively evident) definition identifies genomic complexity with the amount of information a sequence stores about its environment."

I like the way that acknowledges that what we find intuitively evident is of central importance. Unfortunately, this often turns out to mean: heavily front-loaded with hidden assumptions. Following intuition, we might be inclined to begin by observing various organisms and grading their complexity -- their evolvedness -- on the basis of morphologically obvious features: number of eyes, legs, antennae; range and sophistication of function of each feature, etc. It may be quite intuitive to equate complexity with evolvedness or sophistication, but there may be more to it than that.
Who decided that info storage has something to do with number of eyes, legs, antennae; range and sophistication of function of each feature, etc.

Intent( what we as watchers would anthropomorphise as "intent"), and behavior vis-s-vis all competition would to me be a better gauge.

Do you suspect the earliest models of bacteria were as successful as mutating to meet external challenges as today's varieties?


Twenty-five years ago, a considerable chunk of a computer programmer's attention was often devoted to finding elegant ways to make economical use of system resources. The end user was unlikely to appreciate the skill, effort, and creativity involved in the loving stroking of code until it took up the smallest possible space on disk and in memory. In the age of teraflops and gigabytes, this is becoming a lost art. I propose that it would be reasonable to consider the results of such efforts to represent a greater degree of sophistication (evolvedness?) than solutions to the same problems that involve more lines of code.
This one is exactly the problem of intent. Are we looking for programmers who write subtle code, or are we looking for code that does the job we want done in the time & accuracy constraints required, and allows others to bug-fix?


So is the Rube Goldberg toaster more a more evolved design than the one I use -- or less?
If all you want is toast, the simpler the better, imo. Unfortunately, what you "really want" may not be at all obvious to you or anyone else.
 
Originally posted by hammegk
Who decided that info storage has something to do with number of eyes, legs, antennae; range and sophistication of function of each feature, etc.
Right. Precisely my point. I mean, presumably, there is some connection at least at the lower end; there must be some minimial amount required to express the structure and functionality we see, even if it is achieved with the maximum of economy. But an increase in 'info storage' used does not necessarily indicate an increase in complexity or sophistication in structure or function.

Are we looking for programmers who write subtle code, or are we looking for code that does the job we want done in the time & accuracy constraints required, and allows others to bug-fix?
To preserve the usefulness of the metaphor, we might be able to minimize the undesirable element of intent by phrasing it as: "what works for us".

I'd say what works for us is code that does the job we want done in the time & accuracy constraints required -- which no longer demands the subtlety it did when those constraints were tighter. Of course, I suppose it would also then be reasonable to regard unnecessary elegance as extravagance, and classify it as unsophisticated in its own way on that basis.

Unfortunately, what you "really want" may not be at all obvious to you or anyone else.
Yes. I think you have hit it right on the head. Any attempt to definitively classify forms as 'evolved' versus 'de-evolved' (or 'un-evolved') is doomed if it does not devote considerable attention to context. And, whether that context is provided by the needs of software consumers or the struggle for life on the African savannah, it may include elements that are not intuitively obvious.
 
hammegk said:
...
If all you want is toast, the simpler the better, imo. Unfortunately, what you "really want" may not be at all obvious to you or anyone else.
First, forgive my absence. I have been busy testing the local EKG machines and IV's at a nearby hospital. Fortunately, they have thrown me out for good behavior.

"Want" is a very key word for me. Not only do I define "conscious want," but I also define "biological want." The former is greatly obscured by rhetoric, but it is founded upon the latter which can be deemed, essentially, the biological need to maintain homeostasis, with the hypothalamus as the core feature of this biological quest. Because energy resources are relatively finite, and probably dwindling (according to the belief that the universe is headed toward "heat death"), then management of energy resources is the critical biological need which should translate into conscious needs. Hence, the evolution of the brain can be drawn from a biological need to manage the acquisition of energy resources and to efficiently distribute energy resources within the body where needed and when needed.

As a side note, this is the root of the efficiency issue that Dymanic raised. However, it can be seen in far greater impact when related to money. Ultimately, money is our "exchange currency" for physical and mental labor of another human. (Bears and mice couldn't care less about gold coins and diamonds.) In exchange for money, other humans will redistribute their metabolic energy resources to benefit you. How many of you are impacted by the accountability of monetary resources - budgets, finances, etc.? Got a checkbook? Got bucks in your wallet? And how many of us are pressured to use money efficiently?

The other part of efficiency relates to time, as Hammegk noted. An efficient and elegant solution 20 years from now does not help overcome impending disaster within 5 minutes. Timeliness is critical in evolution. As they say, "the quick and the dead."

Returning to "complexity," it may be useful taking a lead from celestial mechanics. The 2-body problem is considered relatively straight forward. The 3-body problem, however, is a monster - as is current research into the N-body problem. In essence, adding one more variable creates greater complexity. If that can be a minimum determinant of complexity, then the number of variables and the number of relationships between them should be an indicator of the complexity of the system.

One other issue regarding de-volution, you could say that cetaceans have somewhat done that in one regard. Creatures climbed out of the sea and then dove back in. Yet, they seemed to have carried all of their historical DNA with them while retaining many terrestrial artifacts. I would expect the same to be true for microbes. Useless DNA is not necessarily sloughed off while de-volving. Thus, some complexity (and perhaps all) is retained in the historical DNA of the de-volved critter.

Personally, I would see this as an evolutionary asset. If the creature needed it once upon a time, perhaps it will need it again someday. Let's hang onto the excess baggage. It may not be efficient, but it is more efficient than writing the code from scratch. (After 25 years in IT, I can attest that much computer software is cobbled from other software since it is much more efficient than writing new code.)

Lastly, the issue of God and leprechauns, as well as the Evolution vs Creationism issue, highlights two other critical issues - what is truth, and what should be our criteria of truth? Ultimately, the Evolution vs Creationism issue must rest upon that.
 
Uumm....what???? I've read your post several times and I'll read it again later to try to respond. It seems that your touching on a number of topics that have already been addressed.
what is truth, and what should be our criteria of truth? Ultimately, the Evolution vs Creationism issue must rest upon that.
Well, not really. I mean, yes our criteria of truth should dicatate this, but is this in question? And, I don't think the Evo V. Crea debate qualifies. Please explain.
 
[Well, not really. I mean, yes our criteria of truth should dicatate this, but is this in question?

>yes it is. depending on how you percieve "Truth"! Truth is Truth no matter what we "dictate it to be"! Man is not in control of this real Truth we should accept truth though testing it and knowing that we know it! This is not easy!

p.s. I like Tonys original post, I also like his personal quotes!

--And, I don't think the Evo V. Creation debate qualifies. Please explain.---

>It does qualify and then also does not and there is "no debate" because truth and science is relevant in all issues, they are all connected all the way down to ALL the atoms of hydrogen which are in everything and everywhere! The great and small are all connected by this> IT IS FACT! H is 99.9 percent abundant! The truth cannot be seperated from anything. its just this "seperation" caused by mankinds pride of knowledge from the true "complete creation idea" that causes confusion. THere IS NO SEPERATION! The Creators thruth is in and through ALL THINGS. Thats all, real simple... Takes "faith"? yes, but we ALL HAVE A MEASURE OF THIS FAITH! let us remain teachable and keep looking for truth, it is inside us all! Love of the Creator and good intent is key here! seperation through confusion and fear has been used over and over in history by the enemy and man. I do not buy it. we are similar! lots of Hydrogen everywhere, but we are also set apart as humans as we can determine our own fate and we can be free by knowing truth. We are reflections or images of God. we are not "Gods" first person, but God can be "in us" and work through us if we submit in faith and goodness, if we submit in Love and truth to one another and to God.
__________________
You have to live it to believe it

Yes, whatever works for you...Then we do need faith, right? BUt faith in what? Maybe faith in goodness helps us "evo" or if we have "bad" faith we do not "evo"! Ever thought of that! ENergy is neither created or destroyed, right:) /QUOTE]

goddoesnotplaydice
 
p.s. oops, sry about the quote mess and akward interjection, hope it makes sence!

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH JAK! We should look around and really understand our false dependancy on "need of greed"! Our planet is beautiful! annnnnnd conservation is ALL GOOD!

Goddoesnotplaydice :)
p.s. because...
He would rather gently tug on our hearts and teach us to love Him, truth, one another and all things great and small! If we submit in Love we will have all of eternity to study him and his beautiful deisign of this wonderful universe and ourselves too! By his Truth and Thru him we can do ANYTHING! :) wanna be a concert guitarist? A Scientist? A universal traveler? no problem! anything else you want that is GOOD intent? He has time! intent intent intent! No hiding it in the end! I love our Creator! :) :)
 
ohh! One more little itsy bitsy comment on DNA complexity evo de- evo etc! Is hydrogen (protium) complex??? hmm... some would say no! I beg to differ! I have played with it, made light from it, controlled the light and used it to make WONDERFUL things!

I would say it is very beautifully indescribeable! It is EVERYWHERE and I MEAN EVERYWHERE!!!! :) look at this below! hehe this "simple little thing"! SIMPLE or NON COMPLEX?? no way!!! IT is very "cute" and VERY VERY VERY .... SMART!!!! :) :) :)

http://www.answers.com/topic/hydrogen-atom-2

look at the "Picture of hydrogen orbitals" above (scroll down link page) and look at the the simulator here..

http://falstad.com/qmatom/

have fun!! :)

Gdnpd
 
cbish said:
...
I mean, yes our criteria of truth should dicatate this, but is this in question? And, I don't think the Evo V. Crea debate qualifies. Please explain.
I believe that "truth" and our "criteria of truth" is central to the issue.

Back in the 1970s, a friend presented me with a paper which supposedly proved the existence of God. After reading it, I was impressed since it sounded very, very convincing. Nevertheless, something was "fishy." So, I replaced the words "Keebler Elves" for every reference to God and read it a second time. Once again, it was very impressive. And I became unsure whether to worship God or the Keebler Elves. I returned the paper to the guy's wife and decried the problem that it was wholly untestable and that Jolly Green Giant, aunt Martha, and any other name could be substituted with the same results. To this, she replied, "But it is proof to him."

Yes, it was proof to him. It met his criterion of truth.

To me, the evolutionists and the creationists are using two criteria of truths. Until we get on the same page with some mutually agreeable ground rules, then the argument is hopeless. Neither side will ever be convinced of the other's position.

The ultimate criterion appears to be the "Coherence Theory of Truth." The failure for that criterion is that it requires omniscience, for which I am grossly lacking. (Anyone wish to profess omniscience?)

IMO, the next best criterion is Negative Pragmatism, first proposed by William Ernst Hocking over 40 years ago (or more). Basically, it says to attack the proposed truth mercilessly. If it survives the gauntlet, view it suspiciously and plan to attack it later. The best survivors are called "theory" or, the highest reward for truly robust ideas, "a law of nature."

The advantage of Negative Pragmatism is that you always harbor a question in your mind: "As much as I believe it, is it the truth?" As a result, we continue to look at it, test it, question it, beat it up unmercifully. In the end, Negative Pragmatism becomes a reliable tool to continually refine truth and uncover new truth. This criterion keeps alive the critical point made by Goddoesnotplaydice:

Goddoesnotplaydice said:
...
let us remain teachable and keep looking for truth

Perhaps, this is an idea both creationists and evolutionists can aspire toward.
 
The advantage of Negative Pragmatism is that you always harbor a question in your mind: "As much as I believe it, is it the truth?" As a result, we continue to look at it, test it, question it, beat it up unmercifully. In the end, Negative Pragmatism becomes a reliable tool to continually refine truth and uncover new truth. This criterion keeps alive the critical point made by Goddoesnotplaydice:

Yes, This is one way to approach the "refinement of truth".

I would suppose that either way there is only one actual real truth. If we see it or not is really just a function of our own perception or desire of it or lack thereof of this realization of the one actual truth. The world and its deceptions can keep us from seeing truth if we aloow it to. Many have been confined to these limited perceptions of truth by their own assumptions and by believing others words or descriptions of what truth is without testing it by their own personal experience of "knowing truth" or by emperical test experience.

another way to actualize truth in our lives is through faith in it.
This can be difficult for many of us. We like to see instant feedback and get physical gratification for our work or energy expended to find or get somthing. Truth does not respond like this because it just "IS", similar to a physical law.> Many men trample on truth in these times so it is even more difficult to find. Truth is really no respector of man. It by its very nature cannot be a respector of anyone. It just is. otherwise it could not be the one real truth.
It cannot change for ANYONE!


So, be careful who you believe and who you follow! I can assure you we all make assumptions, these assumption take time to transform in our minds back into truth once we agree to accept these assumptions or errors. In fact most humans will not admit to incorrect assumtions they have made in the past, becuase it means they must change their thinking and behaviors to correct these previous assumptions. (this is proven to be like pschological torture to change accepted assumptions) Also these assumptions cause incorrect judgements to be actualized on ourselves and others. These assumptions also can cause destruction, wether we intend them to or not. So, thus the "law of truth" convicts us of our transgressions caused by these assumtions or worse yet by actual mal intent. either way we have transgressed. Redemption is now necessary. So faith is needed again and obedience to the "true law" should be in faith and not by compulsion! remeber, free will is paramount.

does this make sence to anyone? should I explain some of the the assumptions we make on a daily basis? I make them too, I just try not to. This way I do not have to expect too much from others! I can give Goodness and hope for Goodness and still not except it. This frees me from judging others because I see they make assumptions without knowing as well. Then it is easyer to forgive them and show compassion for myself and them.

This is one way to find truth. Science is very similar concernig assumptions. Scientific and spiritual laws are similar this way I believe.

Gdnpd
 
With a lull in the activity, let me return to one of the earlier side issues.

Dymanic said:
...
Again from the article I linked:

"To make a case for or against a trend in the evolution of complexity in biological evolution, complexity needs to be both rigorously defined and measurable. A recent information-theoretic (but intuitively evident) definition identifies genomic complexity with the amount of information a sequence stores about its environment."
...
IMO, the "complexity" issue is an extremely important one, and I whole-heartedly agree that "... complexity needs to be both rigorously defined and measurable." To that end, rather than take a strictly biological approach, let's include physics.

To start, can we all agree that "communication" between objects can, and does, occur regularly? (Tires rub the road, you breathe air, a pen contacts and leaves scribbles on paper, etc.) Something fundamental, some common denominator, lies beneath our existence which allows all things of this universe to interact. The 1st law of thermodynamics calls this "energy":
"We used to call a beam of light a 'form of energy,' but now the distinction between matter and energy has disappeared. ... An electron and a positron may combine to form two photons (units of radiation) ... this represents a case of 'matter' changing to 'energy.' ... But the fact that one can change into the other now leads us to think that matter and energy are two aspects of the same thing." (Rothman, 1963. pg. 27,43)
From the 2nd law, we understand that energy travels from high energy sources to low ones (like from a fire to a pot to water inside which eventually boils). As energy increases, entropy increases, and entropy is a measure of chaos:
"An isolated system or a system in a uniform environment ... increases its entropy and more or less rapidly approaches the inert state of maximum entropy. We now recognize this fundamental law of physics to be just the natural tendency of things to approach the chaotic state ..." - from Schrödinger's What is Life? (Schrödinger, 1944. pg. 78)

Not only do things tend to go from order to disorder, but information inherent within a system tends to be lost. Let's look at the fire under the pot for a moment. Suppose that four cedar logs are burning and each log has two knots. We could even have the knots in specific orientations - on opposite sides or one below the other. Also, as with all logs, tree rings which identify growth can be seen. Now, as fire consumes the logs, the knots and the tree rings disappear. The number and placement of knots, as well as the number of tree rings indicating the tree's age is suddenly lost forever. Eventually, even the fact that four logs have been consumed is gone. From the residue ash, you may be able to determine that cedar wood was burned, but how many logs and how many knots existed on each log as well as what pattern of tree rings existed would be totally obliterated. This highlights the 3rd facet of entropy: with increased entropy, information is lost.

"In a closed system, there is a tendency for organization to change into disorganization, or for the amount of information available about the system to become smaller as time goes on." (Rothman, 1963. pg. 144)
If we are to define complexity, it must relate to the information and the relationships between components of an object. The more components, the more relationships, and the more complexity. Entropy tends to go the other direction - less information and, thus, fewer relationships and less complexity.

With this in mind, final entropy (equilibrium) must be the bane of life since no "work cycles" become possible, and death is the result. Natural selection should cull creatures which march toward death. In fact, natural selection should reward creatures which go the opposite direction:
"How would we express in terms of the statistical theory the marvellous faculty of a living organism, by which it delays the decay into thermodynamical equilibrium (death)? We said before: 'It feeds upon negative entropy' ... entropy, taken with the negative sign, is itself a measure of order. Thus the device by which an organism maintains itself stationary at a fairly high level of orderliness (= fairly low level of entropy) really consists in continually sucking orderliness from its environment." (Schrödinger, 1944. pg. 79)
If succumbing to entropy is a reduction toward simplicity, then climbing toward negative entropy should be a drive toward complexity. Hence, the evolutionary march toward complexity.
 
Originally posted by JAK
If succumbing to entropy is a reduction toward simplicity, then climbing toward negative entropy should be a drive toward complexity. Hence, the evolutionary march toward complexity.
I get a little confused while flipping back and forth between considering entropy as a property of a system as a whole and as a property of an organism. Taking your advice and, rather than taking a strictly biological approach, including physics, it gets worse: is entropy a property which can even be meaningfully attributed to a single particle?
 

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