What's wrong with saying "we don't know"?

Debating definitions is a great debate technique....... if you are in High School. It is an easy way to tie up the debate semantically and divert the attention away from the actual question. If we need to argue over definitions then you obviously are conceding that you are a Christian with a clear misunderstanding of the epistemology of this question.

What you fail to notice is that I am not the one bringing up definitions. I am responding to accusations that I am misrepresenting definitions.

Dictionary definitions will get us a general idea of the meanings of words but the philosophical and root meanings are much more useful in this case.

Roots:
(a) to be without
(theism) a belief in a god or a supreme creator of the universe.

Yes, online dictionaries are very convenient to cut and paste from. What might prove more useful is to dig deeper.

Despite your feigned aversion and coondemnation, there is nothing wrong in cutting and pasting and providing links to authoritative sources. Convenience? Of course it's convenient to have authoritative sources to buttress one's argument or rebuttal of false accusations. That's the exact technique taught in argumentation classes The only difference is the convenience factor which seems to irk you for some mystical reason.

Radrook is an ateist by either definition. He denies the existence of Zeus, Thor, Shiva, Akua, Chungli Ch'uan, The Buddhidharma, and multitudes of other gods, and demigods. He (as would many other Christians) dismiss these other belief systems as myth. This is becouse Radrook was born in a predominantly Christian culture and I would guess (I can't know for sure (agnostic)) he was probably born in a Christian family. The belief is cultural and apologetically justified by using arguments from within the belief to justify faith. He does not consider himself an Akua atheist or a Shiva atheist. According to his definition in post #213 he would have to consider this.

That's your interpretation and addition to that clear definition. If I believe in one God, that automatically removes me from the atheist classification. At least according dictionaries definition it does. The reference to culture is irrelevant to the issue. Which again demonstrates clearly that you don't really want to delve into the issue but prefer to deviate the subject to Radrook instead. Radrook and how Radrook got to be Radrook isn't the issue here. The issue here is[as if you didn't know] whether the agnostic view is preferable to the atheist one because the agnostic view is more reasonable while the atheist one is unscientific and illogical.


Let us view this from atheism as a reaction to theism. If he approaches this from a treatment of atheism as a lack of belief in a god. He is still an Akua atheist, however his atheism is not built on a denial (denial actually kind of acknowledges existence)
i.e. Protestant 10 commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," acknowledges the existence of other gods. (your just not allowed to worship them)However, atheism as a lack of belief removes this problem for Radrook. He does not have to deny these gods. He just does not find the case for their existence compelling.

First, the commandments you call Protestant cannot be exclusively classified that way. As you should know but obviously don't, they existed thousands of years prior to Protestantism. So that's the first misrepresentation.

The second is the statement that the bible writers believed in the existence of the gods which the pagans were claiming existed, That too is another misrepresentation. Additionally, you are taking the verses completely out of biblical context.

I will not cite scripture to avoid deviating this thread into theological doctrinal debates. Suffice to say, however, that we are told in the Bible that these gods are unable to see, hear, or speak and are referred to as being no gods at all. So reference to these gods in the scripture you quote is a reference to the concept of the gods of these nations. In other words, those concepts were not to be worshiped. The Jews who were familiar with the creation account which doesn't mention the creation of such gods knew exactly what was being said

Either way the epistemology is important. I would argue more important than dictionary definitions (which are just a starting point, not the "final word.")
Neither case is agnostic, both are technically atheistic. However "hard" atheists (denial of god) are fairly uncommon. Most atheists are the soft type. That is they have a lack of belief pending scientific evidence. Granted they give a very, very, very low probability to the argument for existence.

Again! I clearly explained previously that hard atheists is what I am referring to. Ignoring what I say and plowing happlily ahead anyway disrupts the dialogue-skirts the issue-is time-wasting and most importantly- annoying.

The reason that do not accept Radrook's plea from authority (bible) as evidence is because it is not.

And he continues on! What plea from authority?

The other "logical" arguments that Radrook alludes to (without stating) are also based on a presupposition of faith.

Are you aware that every statement you make is an insult to the intelligence of the readers who can easily see that you are making all this up? Actually, it is becoming gradually evident that you aren't interested in the real issues but just want to annoy via unfounded accusations. Possibly this activity is being fueled by the realization that the atheist position doesn't have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, why would you be hemming and hawing and frantically jawing about irrelevancies?

If you had a rebuttal, you would use it. Since you don't you choose to deviate instead. Which of course is obvious to any intelligent reader of which there are plenty on this forum regardless of the low estimate of their intelligence which your arguments seem to insinuate.


So how doe agnosticism fit with this?

Isn't a doe a doe a female deer? : )

Agnosticism, Radrook starts with an atheistic presupposition.

Agnosticism cannot start within a theistic presupposition.

The lack of belief pending further evidence.

So the epistemic summary,

Agnosticism is a statement about what we can know.
Atheism is a statement about what evidence we accept.

So in a sense, unless you are one of the handful of hard atheists. This thread is really kind of pointless unless Radrook learns something. The fact is that the vast majority of atheists leave some room for the possibility of the existence of a god. Granted it would be the same probability as that of monkeys flying out of my butt.

As previously explained, the stance I assumed falls clearly within the agnoistic definition which presupposes no creator but allows for the possibilty. The other stance is the one YOU WISH I had taken.

BTW
Atheists concede that God is a possibility. That's the most laughable and biggest steaming load of BS I have come across since I've been on the Internet. Atheists vehemently argue against God's existence and regularly call anyone who even considers the possibility of a God fools. Your are a prime example with your snide god-flying-out-of-your-fetid-arse remark.

We happen think that the case for Zues is equal to the case for Kokopelli, and Jahve.

An agnostric would take that view. But the issue is [if indeed you took time to read the question of this thread] whether saying one doesn't know is wrong. In short, whether taking the agnostic position as opposed to the dogmatic one taken by hard atheists is wrong. To which I responded by saying no. A response with which you have taken umbrage to no end.

Now, Radrook if you still don't understand. Then you just want to classify atheists according to what your particular Christian world view dictates. You aren't genuinely interested in dialog or an answer to the question in this thread. I know that the world should fit neatly in to boxes and that you need it to. But every idea is relative to another. When talking philosophically it helps to understand this.
paul

I understand where YOU are coming from perfectly well amigo. Actually, you are projecting all your prejudices and mental narrowness on me when it is YOU who are the one demanding the things you say I demand. But, that's OK. We can disagree. What we shouldn't do, however, is falsely accuse, misrepresent, insult via insinuations and disrespectful remarks, and otherwise make pests of ourselves. It adds NOTHING to the thread, a thread you now say never should have been started. Your fear is of course understandable, but very annoying nevertheless and fortunately-very avoidable.
 
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Radrook get's angry....

What you fail to notice is that I am not the one bringing up definitions. I am responding to accusations that I am misrepresenting definitions.

No accusation, that is exactly what you are doing.



Despite your feigned aversion and coondemnation, there is nothing wrong in cutting and pasting and providing links to authoritative sources. Convenience? Of course it's convenient to have authoritative sources to buttress one's argument or rebuttal of false accusations. That's the exact technique taught in argumentation classes The only difference is the convenience factor which seems to irk you for some mystical reason.

It irks me because the resources available in actual dictionaries and books will demonstrate that "authoritative sources" (again argument from authority) will have many different definitions, and many different twists on the meanings of words. This gives us a clue about the actual worth of a definition in a dialog about knowledge. Words change meanings in time and between cultures. Words also mean different things within certain contexts. Theists could learn a lesson from this.


The reference to culture is irrelevant to the issue. Radrook and how Radrook got to be Radrook isn't the issue here.

O.K. I will concede this even though where your viewpoint originates could be considered part of how we "know" something. I will drop this and hand it to you.


What you fail to notice is that I am not the one bringing up definitions. I am responding to accusations that I am misrepresenting definitions.

No accusation, that is exactly what you are doing.



Despite your feigned aversion and coondemnation, there is nothing wrong in cutting and pasting and providing links to authoritative sources. Convenience? Of course it's convenient to have authoritative sources to buttress one's argument or rebuttal of false accusations. That's the exact technique taught in argumentation classes The only difference is the convenience factor which seems to irk you for some mystical reason.

It irks me because the resources available in actual dictionaries and books will demonstrate that "authoritative sources" (again argument from authority) will have many different definitions, and many different twists on the meanings of words.


First, the commandments you call Protestant cannot be exclusively classified that way. As you should know but obviously don't, they existed thousands of years prior to Protestantism. So that's the first misrepresentation.

Hebrew:
2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

Catholic:
1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Protestant:
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I know that these are all the literal words of God but they seem somehow different to me....


I will not cite scripture to avoid deviating this thread into theological doctrinal debates.

You already did when you mentioned Romans 13.

The Jews who were familiar with the creation account which doesn't mention the creation of such gods knew exactly what was being said

Creation? Yet one more reason to trust in science.



Again! I clearly explained previously that hard atheists is what I am referring to.

No, you never said hard atheists. You said atheists. Even when you attempted to "define" my worldview in this post you never said hard atheist. You lumped us all together.
However, you seem to be making some progress.


Are you aware that every statement you make is an insult to the intelligence of the readers who can easily see that you are making all this up? Actually, it is becoming gradually evident that you aren't interested in the real issues but just want to annoy via unfounded accusations. Possibly this activity is being fueled by the realization that the atheist position doesn't have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, why would you be hemming and hawing and frantically jawing about irrelevancies?

Explaining the differences between agnostics and atheists is what this thread is about. The question is about why atheists cannot admit not knowing. I am contending that the question itself is flawed as both agnostics and atheists admit a certain degree of uncertainty.
Only Theists claim certainty.

If you had a rebuttal, you would use it. Since you don't you choose to deviate instead. Which of course is obvious to any intelligent reader of which there are plenty on this forum regardless of the low estimate of their intelligence which your arguments seem to insinuate.

Read this again.....
No. Wait look into a mirror and read this again.




Isn't a doe a doe a female deer? : )

Good one! lol! missed an "s" but really... should I Quote from further in your post...

agnostric

Before you resort to playground tactics make sure you have your own house in order.


BTW
Atheists concede that God is a possibility. That's the most laughable and biggest steaming load of BS I have come across since I've been on the Internet. Atheists vehemently argue against God's existence and regularly call anyone who even considers the possibility of a God fools. Your are a prime example with your snide god-flying-out-of-your-fetid-arse remark.

No, once again the stance of atheism is a response to theism reread my post and learn. Atheists are scientific and skeptical in their thinking. And anything is possible. Even highly unlikely things are possible. Quit telling atheists how to think.
I understand that Theism is a very 'is or isn't' thought process. Atheism is the only logical and open minded position.


........ hard atheists ......

ah! finally we are making progress.

angry blah blah blah... mental narrowness

Open mindedness. Show me proof and I will join your church.

What we shouldn't do, however, is falsely accuse, misrepresent, insult via insinuations and disrespectful remarks, and otherwise make pests of ourselves. It adds NOTHING to the thread, a thread you now say never should have been started. Your fear is of course understandable, but very annoying nevertheless and fortunately-very avoidable.

I agree, read that statement again....
Wow.
 
BTW
Atheists concede that God is a possibility. That's the most laughable and biggest steaming load of BS I have come across since I've been on the Internet. Atheists vehemently argue against God's existence and regularly call anyone who even considers the possibility of a God fools. Your are a prime example with your snide god-flying-out-of-your-fetid-arse remark.

Thank you for telling me how I think. Wow, it's so much easier to be an atheist now that I know that such rational individuals as yourself are doing all the thinking for me. I don't remember asserting that there is no God, but apparently that's what I do, because I'm an atheist. I should probably get this somnambulism checked out too, because obviously I'm posting proofs against God's existence in my sleep, even though when I'm awake I know one cannot prove the existence or non-existence of God either way. Thanks for alerting me to this potential neurological disorder. Also, I'm pretty sure I never called anyone who even considers the possibility of a God a fool, although I suppose the "agnostic" stance is that it's equally likely that I did, therefore one must assume I did.

The only thing that bums me out is that now I have to accept that mind-reading must be real, judging by Radrook's keen demonstration of his psychic abilities. If I remember correctly, the way to block having your mind read is to don a tinfoil hat. Or wait, am I in the wrong section?
 
I am claiming that a total denial of the existence of God is unreasonable and that the agnostic position of uncertainty is the preferable one.

(1) Define god.

(2) Epistemological considerations aside, what do you believe the reasonable position is in regards to belief in said god?
 
I am claiming that a total denial of the existence of God is unreasonable and that the agnostic position of uncertainty is the preferable one.

And you are wrong. The god described in the bible is logically impossible AND, if it did exist, would have evidence to support it's existence. The bible in book of mythologies.
 
For the sake of dialogue-let's say God as generally described by Christians, Jews and Muslims.
That would be the perfectly just, merciful, loving and good God who is prepared to abandon people to an eternity of torment for failing to correctly guess the one true religion.

I'm with Thaiboxerken - I am 100% certain on perfectly rational grounds that such a God does not exist.
 
I am claiming that a total denial of the existence of God is unreasonable and that the agnostic position of uncertainty is the preferable one.
It is perfectly reasonable to deny the existence of any entity who's definition implies a logical impossibility. There are no four-sided triangles.
 
Here's the issue though. When you say "God" what do you mean by it? If you mean an arbitrary type of all-God of unknown properties, or if you have a deliberately broad scope of possible ideas that "God" could refer to, then obviously the agnostic stance is more reasonable, because this god has not yet been defined.

Once you clearly define God, then it actually is possible to disprove that "God" with a little basic logic. God can be defined by attributing specific (and typically human) qualities to it, referring to the Abrahamic God Jehovah, or trying to prove its existence by way of the ontological, teleological, cosmological, etc. arguments. The moment God becomes something concrete, it can be debunked. Otherwise, there's no reason to bother, and even less reason to care.

It is seriously disingenuous of theists to use "God" as in the arbitrary all-God of unknown properties, and "God" as in the Abrahamic God Jehovah interchangeably. These are two very different things.
 
That would be the perfectly just, merciful, loving and good God....

Well, since you are assuming I am taking the theist position on this thread then let me answer you as a theist would:

True! Very True! And that is why this, merciful, loving, good God does not tolerate evil for all eternity but by virtue of being good, just, loving and merciful, terminates it once and for all by getting rid of all those who are fanatically dedicated to perpetuate it and demand the right to perpetuate it based on their ill founded misconception that they have the right to perpetuate it in a universe that they didn't create and by using a life-there own-that was given them by its just-loving, good merciful God.

BTW
Because he is just and loving, one of the things he will stop for our benefit is the ruining of His earth.

Revelation11:18 NWT
18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

Being just, and merciful, he also will stop death, sickness and aging:

Revelation 21:4 (YLT)
4and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away

That looks pretty merciful and good to me!

who is prepared to abandon people to.... .

The one doing the abandoning isn't God. It's the people who choose to keep their distance via rebellious sinful behavior [such as ruining the earth] which disturbs the peaceful existence of those who love righteousness.

If we disturb our neighbor's peace by trashing an apartment building-then eviction shouldn't come as a great surprise-should it? Or if our insistance on violating a country's laws, results in deportation. Or even worse, if the death sentence might be applied when justifiably applicable. Correct?

Actually, what are proposing is a lawless universe where everything goes without any ultimate authority to set parameters or intervene on behalf of those being victimized. Since that seems to be the ideal then no wonder that you find the biblical God intolerable.

....an eternity of torment for failing to correctly guess the one true religion.

God doesn't deprive people of eternal life due to misunderstandings caused by faulty socialization or belief in misinformation. As for torment-the penalty for sin is death-not torture.

Ezekiel 18:4
“ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

But that would lead us into another subject not germane to this thread.

I'm with Thaiboxerken - I am 100% certain on perfectly rational grounds that such a God does not exist.

OK. However, I see nothing rational in your grounds.
 
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OK. However, I see nothing rational in your grounds.

That's because you fail to realize that the bible is a book of mythology and describes a god that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it exists.
 
That's because you fail to realize that the bible is a book of mythology and describes a god that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it exists.


That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology-wishful thinking, and postulates a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it came to exist that Godless way.

BTW
I still think that the humble and scientific admission of: "I don't know." is the preferable one to the haughty, presumpuous, and totally unconvincing and illogical one of: "I can't prove it but I know for sure."
 
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How to use Radrook's handy-dandy mantra:

Place fingers firmly in ear canals, close eyes and chant...

That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology and describes a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it
came to exist that Godless way.

That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology and describes a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it
came to exist that Godless way.

That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology and describes a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it
came to exist that Godless way.

That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology and describes a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it
came to exist that Godless way.

Repeat until pesky brain stops working.
 
That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology-wishful thinking, and postulates a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it came to exist that Godless way.

You're absolutely foolish. It's already been stated that atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god. Everything else you've assigned to atheism is a strawman. Your God doesn't exist. I know it hurts you to see people say that with confidence, but it's a fact.

BTW
I still think that the humble and scientific admission of: "I don't know." is the preferable one to the haughty, presumpuous, and totally unconvincing and illogical one of: "I can't prove it but I know for sure."

It's not presumption if it's true. YOUR GOD DOES NOT EXIST. Maybe some other god could, but the one you named does not.
 
That's because you fail to realize that atheism is tantamount to mythology-wishful thinking, and postulates a reality that is both logically inconsistent and has no evidence to support the claim that it came to exist that Godless way.

It is not logically inconsistent, it is merely logically incomplete. There is quite a difference.

The theistic god, however, is logically inconsistent (as most of the people here have been saying).

We have no evidence to support the claim that the universe came about in a <fill in the blank> - less way. We do, however, have a great deal of evidence that omniscience and libertarian free-will are inconsistent with each other, that omnipotence is inconsistent by itself, etc.
 
I still think that the humble and scientific admission of: "I don't know." is the preferable one to the haughty, presumpuous, and totally unconvincing and illogical one of: "I can't prove it but I know for sure."

I still can't imagine you could be so haughty, presumptuous and illogical as to fail to recognize and worship the Hindu pantheon. Unless you can prove that the Hindu gods do not exist it is sheer arrogance for you to deny them.

BTW
I'd be willing to bet that you wish you'd responded "I don't know" when you were asked why those names were on that list.
 
Exactly. The only way to make God logically consistent, as traditionally defined, is to completely strip away all the unlimited attributes, religious dogma, and mythical traits. It's like I always say (although I don't know if I've mentioned it here yet) "God" could very well exist on the level of a powerful idea. All gods are essentially ideas, and certain ideas can be very influential in people's lives.

Once you give God a face though, once you weigh it down with mythical window dressing and extraordinary claims, it becomes susceptible to being debunked. If you want to say that your god is the God of the bible, then he is no more likely to exist than any of the Hindu gods, or the Egyptian gods, or the gods of any other culture you can think of. I repeat: the abstract all-God of unknown properties and the Abrahamic God Jehovah are not the same thing. When atheists say that God with a capital "G" does not exist, they are referring to the clearly-defined God of Judeo-Christianity. This is very different from saying that "God," as it refers to a higher power or being, can never exist.

To put it another way, all gods that have faces are gods that do not exist. But some gods are not gods that have faces.
 
I was just waiting for Radrook to let it all hang out....

Well there it is.

Logical and consistent is the mantra of science, not theology.
The circular reasoning of using the bible to justify the bible is consistent, but not logical.
 
You're absolutely foolish.[/b]

Namecalling via categorization? Very unfortunate indeed. Sigh!
Well OK! No problem. But I think that before I send you off into the wild blue you should be aware that the feeling is Mutual.

's already been stated that atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god.

It's already been stated that the atheism I am refering to os the total type of atheism variety.

Everything else you've assigned to atheism is a strawman.

True only if I were referring to all types of supposedly existing atheisms.

Your God doesn't exist. I know it hurts you to see people say that with confidence, but it's a fact.

I could just as easily respond with: " Your precious little idea of
abiogenesis and evolution never happened. I know it hurts you to see people say that with utmost assurance, but it's a fact."

t's not presumption if it's true. YOUR GOD DOES NOT EXIST. Maybe some other god could, but the one you named does not.

Conversely I could just as easily and as mindlessly drone:


YOUR ABIOGENESIS AND EVOLUTION NEVER HAPPENED.
Mabe some other process happened but the process you claim happened did not.


See how ridiculously easy it is? Expressions of that kind come a dime a dozen and maybe involve the usage of one brain neuron at extremely low voltage.

Actually, your claim is like an ant confidently proclaiming that it can see beyond all the trees in the forest from ground-level. Whereupon it would be laughed at by anyone within earshot.

Actually, the only viable explanation for your unyielding hubris is
the following:

You are totally unaware that you are committing the fallacy of universal negative. Below is an explanation for what I hope will be your edification.

Excerpt:

The Free Mind: The Newsletter and Forum of the University of Minnesota Atheists and Humanists 2(7), May/June 1996.

"Is Atheism Logical?",

Hank Hanegraaff

Atheism positively affirms that there is no God. But can the atheist be certain of this claim? You see, to know that a transcendent God does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge you would have to have simultaneous access to all parts of the universe (omnipresence). Therefore, as an atheist, to be certain of this claim you would have to possess Godlike characteristics. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities. The atheist's dogmatic claim is therefore clearly unjustifiable. The atheist is attempting to prove an unjustifiable universal negative. In terms of logic this is called a logical fallacy.

That's why I feel that the agnostic stance of "I don't know!" is the more prefereable of the twain.
 
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How to use Radrook's handy-dandy mantra:

Place fingers firmly in ear canals, close eyes and chant...

Repeat until pesky brain stops working.
I have to admit, this thread got a lot better when I put Radrook on ignore. I still get to see the "Reader's Digest Condensed" version of his mindlessness, without all the irrelevant scripture.
 

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