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What's wrong with Kansas...

jzs said:
I've heard, from various skepticks, that if the position you hold is a good one, then a critical examination of it will

1) determine it is not good afterall

2) confirm it is good afterall, thus strengthening your position


So why wouldn't skeptics want to debate evolution?
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Maybe because it's a rigged game, not a critical examination.
 
It's not like it's even a matter for rational debate in the first place. "Yes, let's put science on the same level as your millenia-old creation mythology, and decide between them. Afterwards, your heart surgeon will debate your spirit healing guru on what to do about your constant heart attacks: surgery, or green tea and aroma therapy?"

The debate shouldn't be about which of the "theories" (choke, groan, choke) is correct, but which should be taught in public school science class: the scientific one, or the religious one?

But somehow I see it as a bunch of people attacking the theory of evolution, and not addressing why exactly their sky god myths should replace science in science class in public schools which are supposed to be secular in nature.
 
TragicMonkey said:
But somehow I see it as a bunch of people attacking the theory of evolution, and not addressing why exactly their sky god myths should replace science in science class in public schools which are supposed to be secular in nature.
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Exactly, but not showing up and ensuring that becomes obvious only plays into their hands. Sure it's a sham, but right now only they and those in the know recognize that. When it hit's the media that the ID people won in a walkover do you think Mr. & Mrs. Average US Citizen is going to put on their skeptical hat and read the news critically analyzing the transcripts? Nah, they will read the headlines and draw their conclusions based on that.
 
Upchurch said:
Heard on the radio this morning that today starts the evolution "trial". They had one of the school board members on who said something to the effect of, "We've pretty much already made up our minds, but I think this is a great opportunity to educate the public."
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So have they decided on a specific "charge" on which to "try" evolution? Or is this going to be one of those situations in which evolution proponents are asked to defend evolution without ever being told what exactly they're being asked to defend? Amazing how easy it is to keep your opponent from disproving your position when you never bother to really articulate what your position is.

Maybe we should have our own version of a "trial". Come up with a definite accusation, get a real judge (perhaps Wapner or Koch?) to enforce real rules of evidence, and get a real jury (not a bunch of people who have already made up their minds).

DavidJames
When it hit's the media that the ID people won in a walkover do you think Mr. & Mrs. Average US Citizen is going to put on their skeptical hat and read the news critically analyzing the transcripts?
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Do you think that whether or not it will be reported as a "walkover" depends on whether evolution proponents show up?
 
I LOVE this sort of thing happening!

It means that students here and elsewhere in the world, despite all the difficulties we have in providing it, will get a world-leading education and be more qualified for the top technical jobs. Whereas the US students from these schools will not be so qualified. It's a real pity for them, but hey! Life wasn't meant to be fair! If their parents are stupid enough to ensure their children remain as stupid as them, then what can you do.
 
Some quotes from CNN.com:

School science classes are teaching children that life evolved naturally and randomly, Harris said, arguing that this was in conflict with Biblical teachings that God created life.

"They are offering an answer that may be in conflict with religious views," Harris said in opening the debate. "Part of our overall goal is to remove the bias against religion that is currently in schools. This is a scientific controversy that has powerful religious implications."
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I am shocked that they are so blatantly bringing the Bible into this. I would have thought they'd skate around the obvious creationism connection.

Of course, my reaction to his comments is simple. F*** you, buddy!
 
Roadtoad said:
Common sense above all points out the myriad flaws in ID, the central one being: How do you replicate God in the laboratory?
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Careful. Just because something cannot be replicated in a laboratory does not mean it cannot fall withing the realm of science. ID is not science; but not replicating God in the laboratory is not the "central of myriad flaws."
 
jzs said:
I've heard, from various skepticks, that if the position you hold is a good one, then a critical examination of it will

1) determine it is not good afterall

2) confirm it is good afterall, thus strengthening your position


So why wouldn't skeptics want to debate evolution?
Click to expand...
You misspelled "skeptics."

"After" and "all" are two different words.

What's going on in Kansas isn't critical examination. It's educational sabotage. Critical examination of ID has already determined that it is a worthless idea devoid of any scientific merit or use. There are no predictions based on ID, no biological technology, no reproducible or falsifiable results. Evolution on the other hand has spawned the entire field of modern biology and medicine as we know it. It's already survived ~150 years of critical examination, and in another 150 years it will still be here, and ID will be a hilarious footnote and the subject of mockery and derision -- along with the 2005 Kansas state Board of Education.
 
Hey, here's a good sign!

...
"Evolution is a great theory, but it is flawed," said Martin, 59, a retired science and elementary school teacher who is presiding over the hearings. "There are alternatives. Children need to hear them…. We can't ignore that our nation is based on Christianity — not science."
...
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Oh, wait. No it's not. That incredibly fallacious reasoning, especially when you're talking about the orgin of life and not the nation. I'm not even going to address the bit about the nation being based on "Christianity." I don't have to. The twit is already wrong.

L.A. Times story here. (reg required soon.)
 
Ah, that makes sense! We'll cling to a fallacious idea because it's comfortable. It makes us feel good, doesn't challenge us too much, and keeps us at the top of our philosophical food chain. We're on top of our world, and nothing can knock us off the top as long as we can maintain the semantics which surround it.

Never mind, of course, that this ignores reality, that ultimately, we'll be required to face up to facts and realize that there's a broader world out there, and that we have responsibilities to that world. Hey, there's nothing like intellectual cowardice to keep you rolling along.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Uhh... don't you mean "education sabotage"?
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Should've capitalized state in "Kansas state Board of Education" too, I believe.

I guess the sabatoge could have had some educational effects, though I don't know what. We all know what knuckleheads the ID folks are already.
 
Ipecac said:
I am shocked that they are so blatantly bringing the Bible into this. I would have thought they'd skate around the obvious creationism connection.

Of course, my reaction to his comments is simple. F*** you, buddy!
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Blatant?

As blatant as admitting that they haven't even bothered to read all the evidence on evolution?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/kansas_evolution

"As a State Board of Education subcommittee heard more testimony Friday on how evolution should be taught in Kansas classrooms, one member acknowledged that she hadn't read all of an evolution-friendly draft of science standards proposed by educators...."
 
SlippyToad said:
You misspelled "skeptics."
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That's fine. I wasn't the one claiming to be an editor, nor have the entire world as my peer review.

Maybe I didn't misspell it... seeing as you tend to latch on to things. :)


There are no predictions based on ID, no biological technology, no reproducible or falsifiable results. Evolution on the other hand has spawned the entire field of modern biology and medicine as we know it. It's already survived ~150 years of critical examination, and in another 150 years it will still be here, and ID will be a hilarious footnote and the subject of mockery and derision -- along with the 2005 Kansas state Board of Education.
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Good. Then like I said, if evolution continues to be examined like so, you should have nothing to worry about.
 
crimresearch said:
Blatant?

As blatant as admitting that they haven't even bothered to read all the evidence on evolution?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/kansas_evolution

"As a State Board of Education subcommittee heard more testimony Friday on how evolution should be taught in Kansas classrooms, one member acknowledged that she hadn't read all of an evolution-friendly draft of science standards proposed by educators...."
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I have a very religious friend who told me she doesn't believe in evolution. I asked her to tell me everything she knew about it and I was stunned at how absolutely little she knew.
One of her major problems with evolution, as she put it, is that she didn't believe that humans could ever attain perfection like the theory of evolution states we are heading toward. Huh???

Unfortunately, in a free society, every person has a right to be as totally ignorant as they want to be. It's when they want to spread their ignorance in an educational setting that's get's me pissed.
 
If it wasn't for the potential effect on the children's education - I'd like to see the Kansas school board actually implement an intelligent design curriculum.

I think that no matter how hard the intelligent design "scientists" attempt to devise a "serious" and "scientific" grade school curriculum - once it sees the light of day (i.e., textbooks, course notes, handouts, etc. become available ) - the "ENTIRE" world will have a field day ridiculing the Kansas school board.
 
Roadtoad said:
Damn it, damn it, DAMN IT!

Here's the Evolution story... . . .

The Kansas Board of Education has scheduled six days of courtroom-style hearings to begin on Thursday in the capitol Topeka. More than two dozen witnesses will give testimony and be subject to cross-examination, with the majority expected to argue against teaching evolution.
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What is the law regarding deliberately inaccurate public testimony? Is it possible that if it can be demonstrated that these guys are wrong, the hearings are invalid? If it can be demonstrated that these guys testified dishonestly, the hearings are invalid and maybe somebody gets a perjury charge?
 
Ah!
The Intergalactic Planetary Creation Committee on Denobi Minor will be very pleased.
 
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