What's the point?

[Rolfe]

Wouldn't the remains of thousands of oxygen starved office workers preserved in mint condition, with pictures of their hands frozen in the position of gasping for air, be a more effective war tactic? Think of the thousands of individual funerals you could have, with the bodies in coffins.
There is no chance in hell they could repair the buildings, so would have to strip down their own 110 skyscraper in full public display and full humiliation of the entire world. They are the ones to knock it down. It would be like scrubbing off someone elses graffiti. Humiliation.

Like a perfect designer being very imperfect for designing the rubbish human jaw, I'd fire anyone who came up with this terrible idea.

I read an earlier post on this subject commenting that in fact the buildings coming down was in retrospect maybe a bit of a mercy. OBL was reported as saying they hadn't really expected that to happen, and saw it as a bonus. Which maybe it was from the point of view of immediate "shock and awe".

But consider, there was no way to rescue those trapped above the impact points. Hours more of frenzied phone calls begging for help, and tearful last conversations with loved ones? Firemen finally getting in there and discovering who knows how many human tragedies, all laid out before them? Then two towers that would have to be demolished piecemeal?

Maybe in a way, they were lucky.

Rolfe.

 

[Brainster]

Do you have a link to this explanation? I'm more than bit curious.

It's just a general observation about the nature of conspiracy theorists in general applied to the 9-11 CTs in general.

ETA: Or are you talking about Ryan's explanation? He voiced that on the Thom Hartmann show the other day during his debate with Michael Shermer.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Do you have a link to this explanation? I'm more than bit curious.

ive seen similar arguments from pentagon no-planers (or not f77ers anyway) that hanjour was not a good enough pilot to hit n light poles and then slam into the pentagon between the 1st and 2nd floors, as if hanjour was trying to hit exactly n poles then hit the pentagon exactly where he did

the same logic applies to the "precision: flying on the way to the pentagon, its only precision is you assume he was trying to fly that exact path, and not doing a crappy job of going straight


i believe its called the texas sharpshooter fallacy

 

[gtc]

Perhaps the government knew that 911 was going to happen but was powerless to stop it; so they figured they would wire the WTC up for a CD to save the costs of demolishing it afterwards.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I once heard an argument that 9-11 was carried out by a black ops organisation known to the CIA but more secret than them, and that therefore the demolition of WTC7 was a message from this organisation to the CIA, along the lines of "Don't mess with us, we know where you live". It has the virtue of explaining why a building that had suffered no damage and only a small fire [1] should collapse; it was intended to look suspicious, but only the CIA would know enough to get the real message. How the existence of this super-secret black ops organisation was known to the conspiracy theorist was not further expanded on in that conversation - surprisingly, he changed the subject before I could ask.

Dave

[1] I know, I know...

 

[Max Photon]

Max gives his answer to: What was the point of the controlled-demolitions?

We have all heard the arguments put forth by people like Steven Jones regarding controlled demolitions on 9-11. The question I have is what was the point of it [the controlled demolitions]? Afterall, why go through all the trouble of placing devices in the WTC and risking discovery? Why would you even need to do a controlled demolition when flying an aircraft with passengers into a building full of civilians is an act of war? Seems to be overkill if you ask me.

AMTMAN,

Key to the scientific process are superb questions, and yours is a superb question!

And you should expect any truther worth his salt to be thrilled at the opportunity to share his answer.


What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

The controlled-demolitions of the WTC towers (not WTC7) served not one, but several functions. In other words, the controlled-demolitions were multi-valued functions.

(Note: It is very difficult for black-and-white, or binary (read: 2-bit) thinkers to comprehend multi-valued functions. The requisite apparatus is missing. This usually manifests as a lack of a sense of humor.)

MILDEC planners - think of them as psychological/perceptual control engineers - required a input signal that could be used to induce resonance in a subset of the known human propensities.

Consider the same problem in a different domain:

When the equities bubble popped in 2000, financial engineers needed to induce a replacement bubble to keep the ossified banking system from failing.

The universe had to be flooded with credit. Unfortunately for financial engineers, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it borrow.

So you gotta make the poor thing thirsty.

Financial engineers - well aware of the human propensity menu - chose wisely, and chose to engineer resonance in the human propensity to hoard.

The propensity to hoard is an emergent higher-order term that appears when the propensity to save is disrupted, or the means of savings distorted.

Removing gold as a metric from the global financial system has created distortions in the means of saving, and the propensity to save, which leaving the propensity to hoard ripe to emerge.

Housing - being a very big ticket item - was targeted item to be hoarded.

Low interest rates, tax breaks, GSEs, etc, etc, etc, were all geared to generating resonance in the propensity to hoard.

The $500 trillion dollar derivatives tower hints at the engineer's success.


Well MILDEC psychological engineers faced a similar challenge.

Military planners had a whole bunch of illegal invasions that were coming due, and a pretext was needed to manufacture consent.

MILDEC planners needed an input signal that could be played and sustained in the media - much like Jimi Hendrix can sustain indefinitely a single note - using feedback.

The goal was to excite - create resonance in - select well-know emotions and propensities in the citizenry, thereby manufacturing consent.

Blind hate, jingoism, conformity, irrational subordination, and cohesion behind leadership are just some of the target resonant frequencies.

Using a process similar to CARVER Target Analysis, MILDEC planners isolated the Twin Towers - and their razing to the ground - as the psychological target with the highest target value.

Remember that most people - even if they know better - think of the towers as massive, solid, unmovable - eternal - objects.

The towers were terra firma.

The razing of the towers, down to the nub, was a direct assault on peoples' sense of terra firma.

Planners realized that uncatalyzed, the jets crashing into the towers would have been unspectacular, and the towers were not guaranteed to collapse.

The opportunity planners saw was that it would not take that much extra energy - if used carefully - to migrate the towers from global stability to global instability, and in a robust manner.

Thermite was chosen as the catalyst because - as we seen in the microspheres discussions - what is thermite residue and what is residue from the towers or a zillion other sources - is inherently ambiguous. And ambiguity is a cloaking device.

Thermite was also chosen because of its incredible versatility:

• Improvised thermite created phreato-thermatic or aluminum-water explosions that were visually spectacular - thereby providing incredibly powerful input signals for perception engineers - and that knocked of SFRM - a key technical aspect of the controlled-demolitions.
• Planted thermite was placed at various splices and connections, and was used to heat-weaken the steel.
• Thermite was used to dust shock-tube, to create in effect a thermite fuse.
• Thermite was made to spew out of columns, creating fires visible from the exterior.
• The placement of these fires created hot spots and cold spots (differential heating) and buckling.
• The choreographing of these fires created "migrating fires."

In other words, thermite was chosen as the stealth catalyst, guaranteed to induce collapse, and provide a believeable pre-engineered narrative that the jets alone cause the towers to collapse.

- - -

The short version:

What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

• To excite hate, and subordination;
• To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;
• To provide a pre-engineered narrative.
  

Max

* * *

 

[pomeroo]

AMTMAN,

Key to the scientific process are superb questions, and yours is a superb question!

And you should expect any truther worth his salt to be thrilled at the opportunity to share his answer.


What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

The controlled-demolitions of the WTC towers (not WTC7) served not one, but several functions. In other words, the controlled-demolitions were multi-valued functions.

(Note: It is very difficult for black-and-white, or binary (read: 2-bit) thinkers to comprehend multi-valued functions. The requisite apparatus is missing. This usually manifests as a lack of a sense of humor.)

MILDEC planners - think of them as psychological/perceptual control engineers - required a input signal that could be used to induce resonance in a subset of the known human propensities.

Consider the same problem in a different domain:

When the equities bubble popped in 2000, financial engineers needed to induce a replacement bubble to keep the ossified banking system from failing.

The universe had to be flooded with credit. Unfortunately for financial engineers, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it borrow.

So you gotta make the poor thing thirsty.

Financial engineers - well aware of the human propensity menu - chose wisely, and chose to engineer resonance in the human propensity to hoard.

The propensity to hoard is an emergent higher-order term that appears when the propensity to save is disrupted, or the means of savings distorted.

Removing gold as a metric from the global financial system has created distortions in the means of saving, and the propensity to save, which leaving the propensity to hoard ripe to emerge.

Housing - being a very big ticket item - was targeted item to be hoarded.

Low interest rates, tax breaks, GSEs, etc, etc, etc, were all geared to generating resonance in the propensity to hoard.

The $500 trillion dollar derivatives tower hints at the engineer's success.


Well MILDEC psychological engineers faced a similar challenge.

Military planners had a whole bunch of illegal invasions that were coming due, and a pretext was needed to manufacture consent.

MILDEC planners needed an input signal that could be played and sustained in the media - much like Jimi Hendrix can sustain indefinitely a single note - using feedback.

The goal was to excite - create resonance in - select well-know emotions and propensities in the citizenry, thereby manufacturing consent.

Blind hate, jingoism, conformity, irrational subordination, and cohesion behind leadership are just some of the target resonant frequencies.

Using a process similar to CARVER Target Analysis, MILDEC planners isolated the Twin Towers - and their razing to the ground - as the psychological target with the highest target value.

Remember that most people - even if they know better - think of the towers as massive, solid, unmovable - eternal - objects.

The towers were terra firma.

The razing of the towers, down to the nub, was a direct assault on peoples' sense of terra firma.

Planners realized that uncatalyzed, the jets crashing into the towers would have been unspectacular, and the towers were not guaranteed to collapse.

The opportunity planners saw was that it would not take that much extra energy - if used carefully - to migrate the towers from global stability to global instability, and in a robust manner.

Thermite was chosen as the catalyst because - as we seen in the microspheres discussions - what is thermite residue and what is residue from the towers or a zillion other sources - is inherently ambiguous. And ambiguity is a cloaking device.

Thermite was also chosen because of its incredible versatility:

• Improvised thermite created phreato-thermatic or aluminum-water explosions that were visually spectacular - thereby providing incredibly powerful input signals for perception engineers - and that knocked of SFRM - a key technical aspect of the controlled-demolitions.
• Planted thermite was placed at various splices and connections, and was used to heat-weaken the steel.
• Thermite was used to dust shock-tube, to create in effect a thermite fuse.
• Thermite was made to spew out of columns, creating fires visible from the exterior.
• The placement of these fires created hot spots and cold spots (differential heating) and buckling.
• The choreographing of these fires created "migrating fires."

In other words, thermite was chosen as the stealth catalyst, guaranteed to induce collapse, and provide a believeable pre-engineered narrative that the jets alone cause the towers to collapse.

- - -

The short version:

What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

• To excite hate, and subordination;
• To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;
• To provide a pre-engineered narrative.

Max

* * *

You continue to slander innocent people with your puerile falsehoods.

 

[AMTMAN]

AMTMAN,


- - -

The short version:

What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

• To excite hate, and subordination;
• To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;
• To provide a pre-engineered narrative.
  

Max

* * *

So in other words they needed the towers to fall in order to incite hate? Seems that an airliner crashing into a building and people falling out of or jumping from would have sufficed.

To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;

Once again, why? Even if the towers had remained standing the US economy would have still have taken a hit. Besides, the US economy was already on shaky ground prior to 9-11.

To provide a pre-engineered narrative.

English please.

Also I did not ask you about how it was done, only why. So please stop with the thermite non-sense.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

(Note: It is very difficult for black-and-white, or binary (read: 2-bit) thinkers

actually binary relies on single bits that have one of 2 values (0 or 1)

i think the term "2-bit noun" you were going for actually derives from an old nickname for a quarter (two bits) and would indicate a cheap (IE low-quality) product

and if you want to get really technical, colors (like black and white) are often passed as 24-bit strings



and if you were wondering, i didnt feel there was anything else in your post worth adressing

 

[MIKILLINI]

The short version:

What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

• To excite hate, and subordination;
• To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;
• To provide a pre-engineered narrative.
  

Max

* * *

And Bush Sr. tells his former Secretary of Defense: Now go and finish what I started, complete our Neocon master plan, it's for the taking and to establish the NWO.

 

[OldTigerCub]

The short version:

What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?
To excite hate, and subordination;
To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;
To provide a pre-engineered narrative.

Max

I see a lot of dots being connected, but the picture still only looks like a lot of dots with lines in between.

When the equities bubble popped in 2000, financial engineers needed to induce a replacement bubble to keep the ossified banking system from failing.

The universe had to be flooded with credit. Unfortunately for financial engineers, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it borrow.

It would be counterproductive for the financial industry to further jeopardize their positions in an already recessionary climate, and shutting down businesses such as those on Wall Street and particularly the nation's air travel system created ripples in the economy that are still being felt today.

Financial engineers - well aware of the human propensity menu - chose wisely, and chose to engineer resonance in the human propensity to hoard.

The propensity to hoard is an emergent higher-order term that appears when the propensity to save is disrupted, or the means of savings distorted.

Removing gold as a metric from the global financial system has created distortions in the means of saving, and the propensity to save, which leaving the propensity to hoard ripe to emerge.

It seems to me the only thing that was hoarded in the wake of 9-11 was duct tape and plastic (and gasoline, of course, since everyone had to drive until the planes got back in the air)

 

[AMTMAN]

It would be counterproductive for the financial industry to further jeopardize their positions in an already recessionary climate, and shutting down businesses such as those on Wall Street and particularly the nation's air travel system created ripples in the economy that are still being felt today.



QUOTE]


Tell me about it!

 

[MIKILLINI]

We have all heard the arguments put forth by people like Steven Jones regarding controlled demolitions on 9-11. The question I have is what was the point of it? Afterall, why go through all the trouble of placing devices in the WTC and risking discovery? Why would you even need to do a controlled demolition when flying an aircraft with passengers into a building full of civilians is an act of war? Seems to be overkill if you ask me.

Another thing that nags me about this is flight 77. Did they decide they would keep the loss of life down by flying it into the renovated section of the Pentagon, while at the same time, rigging up the Twin Towers to ensure their collapse and create massive loss of lives?

 

[snagswolf]

What was the function of the controlled-demolitions?

• To excite hate, and subordination;
• To guarantee that both towers would collapse completely;
• To provide a pre-engineered narrative.

Wouldn't all three of those functions have been better served if they blew up the towers as soon as the planes hit?

- More people would have died because there would have been no chance of evacuation in the first tower, and only a partial evacuation in the second.

- It would guarantee the same collapse.

- Having the towers collapse upon impact of the planes would place the blame squarely on the planes, a credible narrative.

 

[AMTMAN]

Another thing that nags me about this is flight 77. Did they decide they would keep the loss of life down by flying it into the renovated section of the Pentagon, while at the same time, rigging up the Twin Towers to ensure their collapse and create massive loss of lives?

I'm preety sure the truthers can come up with some bizzare explanation.

 

[DavidJames]

While it may be an interesting academic exercise to try and understand why 9/11 CTists think the way they do, I think beyond the exercise bit, it's a futile endeavor.

Based solely on anecdotal evidence I've seen over the past year or so here and the LC forums, I've come to the conclusion that anyone who believes in any of the various 9/11 CT's and has been exposed to the myriad of genuine evidence (NIST, 9/11 report, various debunking sites, etc.) is either mentally ill, blinded by ideology of some type (be it political, cultural or simple anti-establishment/authority) or is simply a charlatan.

My point is most of the CTists who come here are not genuinely interested in what happened on 9/11. They are not intellectually curious about the facts. The are not open to anything that doesn't fit into their preconceived CT beliefs. It only takes a handful of posts for most of us to spot the true believer. At that point, the law of diminishing returns sets in. People are just wasting their time debating (such as it were). I'm not suggesting the debunking stop, it's important for the newcomers (see bolded bit above). Every so often we'll read of a CTists changing their stripes, but I don't recall any of them being bathed in the CT woo for extended periods before finally coming to their senses.

When a new member starts asking those loaded questions, fighting the good fight makes sense. But once it become clear they already believe they know "The Truth" and are just looking to proselytize, their efforts deserve to die the death of silence.

Having said that, a daily review of the Stundie thread can sure turn that frown upside down.

 

[Tirdun]

The controlled-demolitions of the WTC towers (not WTC7) served not one, but several functions. In other words, the controlled-demolitions were multi-valued functions.

So several = multi-valued. Thank you, Doctor Dictionary! Despite having zero, in other words, none, in other words, a complete lack of evidence to support this claim, you continue to harp on this as if you've solved the case and we're all just sitting around the drawing room waiting for the big reveal so the Bobbies to arrive and drag off the guilty party in the middle of his confession. Or perhaps that's too high brow. Maybe you'll unmask old man Withers and we'll all marvel at how he used fishing line and a cut-up bedsheet to chase Scooby and Shaggy away from the mill where he hid the Indian gold.

(Note: It is very difficult for black-and-white, or binary (read: 2-bit) thinkers to comprehend multi-valued functions. The requisite apparatus is missing. This usually manifests as a lack of a sense of humor.)

Your weak attempt at psychoanalyzing the skeptical as being too dim to understand something as complex as "multi-valued" is pathetic.

When the equities bubble popped in 2000, financial engineers needed to induce a replacement bubble to keep the ossified banking system from failing.

Gods, is this what you really believe? That GWB and company engineered all of this purely to spark financial chaos? That they planned out a decade of financial shifts and credit swings and set this insane process off by destroying the WTC and killing thousands?

I considered reviewing your litany of nonsense to argue with it, but there's really no need. The sheer scope of impossibility increases exponentially from your first word, and thus needs nothing more than for a person to read it as it exists in situ.