What's going on in Paris?

[Freakshow]

I did make previous reference to the involuntary migration from Africa.

Sorry 'bout that. I plead guilty to not reading every single letter of this thread. Hopefully, I can throw myself on the mercy of the court, and the punishment won't be too severe.


ETA: BTW, CD, I was trying to be sarcastic and funny, not an a**hole.

 

[Elind]

Well, there is this one particular group of people who did in fact get to the US because people came and picked them up. (The frown is for the horrible abomination that is slavery, and the consequences of such action that are still being felt today. Wanted to make sure that people knew the frown was NOT because of the fact that there are many descendents of Africans living in the US now. Some racist pieces of garbage do in fact feel that way. And I wish such people would get the f*** out of my country.)

There are certainly some (the white racists you refer to), a very few, around but I've never met one. I have however run into some, also a very few, black ones who make their profession by lobbying for reparations many generations later and complaining of white investment in "their" communities. Latter day carpetbaggers they seem to think. The modern day racists have gone full circle and taught their once victims well.

Of course while on the subject we could bring up the many many thousands of Europeans who were brought over as indentured servants and who would have seen themselves as nothing more than slaves. We could also consider the present day slavery that still exists in Africa, and was only officially banned in Saudi Arabia in the 60s.

Hell, we could try hard and not find a single country or people that have not be persecuted in some way in the past few hundred years; and then we could ask them all if they have got a life yet?

Some could legitimately say no. Like in Sudan for example, but harping on that would diminish the case of the rioters in France, or the fake black muslims in the US who want a separate country (paid for by everyone else, and as long as it's not Liberia).

I could rant more, but I don't think the issue is mostly race anymore; that's just a convenient excuse for more complicated problems.

 

[Freakshow]

There are certainly some (the white racists you refer to), a very few, around but I've never met one. I have however run into some, also a very few, black ones who make their profession by lobbying for reparations many generations later and complaining of white investment in "their" communities. Latter day carpetbaggers they seem to think. The modern day racists have gone full circle and taught their once victims well.

Of course while on the subject we could bring up the many many thousands of Europeans who were brought over as indentured servants and who would have seen themselves as nothing more than slaves. We could also consider the present day slavery that still exists in Africa, and was only officially banned in Saudi Arabia in the 60s.

Hell, we could try hard and not find a single country or people that have not be persecuted in some way in the past few hundred years; and then we could ask them all if they have got a life yet?

Some could legitimately say no. Like in Sudan for example, but harping on that would diminish the case of the rioters in France, or the fake black muslims in the US who want a separate country (paid for by everyone else, and as long as it's not Liberia).

I could rant more, but I don't think the issue is mostly race anymore; that's just a convenient excuse for more complicated problems.

I've run into both.

But I do know what you mean. Example: Jesse Jackson. A charlatan and con-man if I've ever seen one.

 

[Elind]

I do mean that. Fundie Christianity will be tainted by unpopular Republican policies, such as the Iraq War - which, as far as I can see, isn't a major fundie issue. The Republicans meanwhile will be tainted by purely fundie issues, such as ID. A Republican-Fundie alliance will be limited to the intersection of two sets of voters, rather than the sum. The Democrats will benefit from that, by abstention if nothing else. When this becomes clear, Republicans will start rowing away from the fundies pretty damn quick. With John McCain calling stroke .

Perhaps. Life is nothing but cycles (buddhist?); but in our lifetime? You could also imagine the Dems trying harder to get the same voters.

Le plus ca change le plus cest la meme chose.

 

[Elind]

I've run into both.

But I do know what you mean. Example: Jesse Jackson. A charlatan and con-man if I've ever seen one.

An opportunist and ambulance chaser I would say along with that other presidential wannabee; but actually not who I was thinking of. Principled or unprincipled, I don't feel he is racist. Malcolm X on the other hand is nothing but.

 

[WildCat]

I've run into both.

But I do know what you mean. Example: Jesse Jackson. A charlatan and con-man if I've ever seen one.

Have you ever read this book?

 

[Freakshow]

An opportunist and ambulance chaser I would say along with that other presidential wannabee; but actually not who I was thinking of. Principled or unprincipled, I don't feel he is racist. Malcolm X on the other hand is nothing but.

Ah, I understand you now. I didn't mean that JJ was a racist. I simply meant that he exploits the situation for his own gain, and that he doesn't actually care about any African Americans...other than himself.

OK, we can get back to the thread, and quit derailing this one now.

 

[Freakshow]

Have you ever read this book?

No. Heard of it, but have not read it.

 

[Bjorn]

I think that's a fair observation, too. Would it be fair to say that poor people who were dissatisfied with their lot left?

And they passed their lives' lessons and their values on to their children?

Seriously, I think you're correct, although many dissatisfied poor people either never got the chance or didn't have the courage. Or didn't have relatives who had gone earlier telling them about the 40 acres (I've seen quite a few such letters just from members of my family).

May have to amend my hypothesis. Thanks.

You may. Or maybe dissatisfied people are more likely to use guns than satisfied people?

 

[Elind]

Ah, I understand you now. I didn't mean that JJ was a racist. I simply meant that he exploits the situation for his own gain, and that he doesn't actually care about any African Americans...other than himself.

OK, we can get back to the thread, and quit derailing this one now.

Derailing? I can't keep such good track of the principles except in my own threads. Thing move too fast.

I'll defend JJ to the extent that I think he probably thinks the best way to help is to keep in the news, even if the lines get blurred. Ends justify the means, and so on. Tacky perhaps, but the real test is whether he will attack anyone in his own camp, as few will do (Republicans or Democrats included). The only one that comes to mind at the moment is Cosby, and look at what that got him.

 

[Elind]

Have you ever read this book?

Should I? Really?

Don't we get enough demonizing right here? How many similar books on Bush are out there? I don't think I need to read a book by one author with an ax to grind to hold an opinion. All I have to do is ask the forum for opinions; and read the news on Google.

 

[kittynh]

I still havent had any offers from people to pick me up from the airport. Really, I'm going to have to sell a kidney to afford the cab fare

 

[Freakshow]

I still havent had any offers from people to pick me up from the airport. Really, I'm going to have to sell a kidney to afford the cab fare

Fair enough. I'll be there to pick you up, provided that you have one of your kidneys on ice in a cooler. Deal?

 

[Just thinking]

This reminds me of a kid I once knew who would ride his bicycle on the local river when it was frozen (true story). I told him he was nuts because river ice can never be trusted. No problem he explained to me. He was absolutely sure that when the ice started breaking he would be able to push himself off the bike and run to safety. The bike would sink but he would be fine on the nearby thick ice. The kid is still alive and a young adult now but only because he never had to prove his theory.

I find it amazing how, in this very sudden uprising, some people actually think they would have had enough time to gather up all their needed posessions, organize a full family relocation and automatically become safe. And just where does one go? These riots are occuring all over the country with not much evidence of any pattern.

I think one would have an easier time laying down track as did Gromit in The Wrong Trousers.

 

[Mycroft]

I still havent had any offers from people to pick me up from the airport. Really, I'm going to have to sell a kidney to afford the cab fare

At the very least you need to say which airport.

 

[Flo]

Well it took over a 100 post to come to that agreement but at least we are there.

I am go into the dangerous terroritory of analogy but here are my thoughts:
1) Bigotry is the log for the fire. It is long lasting and relatively stable.
2) Unemployment is the tinder for the fire. It can increase or decrease rapidly and it is the easiest for government to change.
3) Once the logs and tinder are set up, almost anything can be the spark. With long term unemployment, a spark is almost inevitable.

In this case, there's a point missing: the fact that, should there be employment, the victims of bigotry are aware that they will not benefit from it. That's why I answered that I wish things were so simple as to reverse some economic policies: the main task ahead is to prove to a whole segment of French society, mostly those originating from the former colonies, that they will be treated as the French citizens they are. It means really doing something so that discrimination in the allocation of jobs and housing becomes a thing of the past ...

The US is not the only viable economic model for low unemployment. Scandinavia and the UK have effective models which would be easier for the French to adopt. Some of the new EU members also have systems which appear to be working as well but it is too early to tell if they are long lasting.

I agree.

But France, Germany and Italy have to modify their system to one that provides jobs to youth. If they were smart (and politicians rarely are), they would look at the low unemployment nations and pick and choose the appropriate measures for their own country. Unfortunately, most politician prefer to make political points rather than brave stands that would help the country. And most people are not will to put up with short term costs for long term benefit.
It would be nice, but unlikely, if these riots cause France to examine its economic system and make changes.

"Mankind will turn to rational solutions only once it has experimented with all the others"

 

[Flo]

Sarcasm not required to discuss an issue with me. My point was that no one needs to be "heavily armed". I only believe that everyone should have the right to be appropriately armed. Not every one can be athletic, martial arts trained, alert young men. The point of carrying an appropriately sized concealed weapon is that it levels the playing field and makes the potential cost of beating an old man to death greater than many young men would risk.

edited for sp.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I get a bit tired of discussing things with people whose idea of the situation is "The whole of France is ablaze, police and government are doing Nothing, apathetic citizens attacked every minute, revolution around the corner, and Toulouse is 25 miles from Strasbourg" (I discovered this on CNN this morning ).

As I was stating in the rest of my post, almost nobody in France (and in most of Europe) has any need to carry weapons for their protection, and they won't suddenly start to do so for sporadic, unpredictable, and most likely once in a lifetime situation.

 

[Flo]

I don't understand this. Do you think there is something fundamentally different about young Muslims that you think the natural response to one of them getting killed through participation in mindless violence is for more of them to participate in mindless violence?

It has nothing to do with them being Muslims (a lot of those participating in the current violences are christians, from French and African descent), but everything with being called scum, refused jobs and decent housing for living in rotten suburbs, and identifying with the rioter's grievances if not with the means to express them.

Of course, keeping on reducing everything to "there might be something fundamentally different about young Muslims" will certainly lead to the clash of civilization and religions some people apparently wish so much to happen

 

[Flo]

Well, have you seen their historical war record?

Just joking, French folks, please do not fling onions they are surprisingly hard and painful

What are you afraid of, given our poor aim and our historical war record ?

 

[Flo]

I don't think CD's reference to Derry was a digression. It goes to exactly the kind of issues that a police force needs to think about when it moves to quell riots.

I would put up the LA riots as another example. My brief cut at the LA riots:

The not guilty verdict for police officers involved in the video taped violent arrest of Rodney King triggered a violent reaction in parts of the Los Angeles black community.

The police were slow to react to the violence. The slow reaction may have been a kind of reaction to the criticism that the police were taking for various actions including a small riot that they had put down roughly in Westwood some time earlier.

The slow reaction of the police seemed to embolden the rioters and the violence quickly became much more widespread.

The violence quickly became more about theft than any grievances. In the end more of the people arrested were people of Latin ethnicity than blacks who I don't think were particularly energized by the Rodney King incident.

The violence was exacerbated by the pandering of a few black leaders to the rioters.

The violence was brought to an end in a few days after the governor of California brought in the National Guard.

About 50 people were killed in the LA Riots.

Overall, the communities in the area of the riots suffered significantly. Many stores closed permanently, Many businesses closed permanently making employment harder to come by in these areas. Property values were depressed for years.

I am not exactly sure how this plays into the French Riots, but there are similarities and differences.

1. The violence was much more geograpically isolated in the LA riots. There were not any significant civil disturbances in the rest of California or the rest of the US.

2. IMHO, the slow reaction of the police led to a much larger civil disturbance than otherwise would have occurred in the LA riots. I wonder if the limited reaction of the French police to the problem with car arson hasn't emboldened the rioters by making them realize that they can get away with it.

3. In the end the LA riots were principally driven by short term gain for the rioters through looting. Are the French rioters still principally engaging in acts of destruction or is successful looting becoming a driving factor?

4. Some black leaders in the LA riots were on the edge of encouraging the rioters and were very slow to criticize the violence. Is this true of the north african community leaders or for the most part are they taking a strong stand against the violence?

1. There's a lot less civic disturbance in France than it appears. It is mostly restricted to a few suburbs around a number of cities. There's a problem with copycats and competition between gangs, though (kids see themselves on CNN, other kids want their 15 minutes of fame - 2 cars burned at night in the center of Geneva yesterday, for example ...).

2. In part certainly yes. The problem however is that the police has to be extremely careful not to ignite things to a point where the rioters will feel a need to get really organized.

3. So far, hardly any looting at all. They are mostly vandalising things and trying to harass the police, for "political" reasons.

4. All the community leaders have publicly taken a strong stand against violences. Many community members have demonstrated in the streets against violences. As long as the government and police forces are seen to exert restraint, and now that Sarkozy has stopped with the "Robocop rhetoric", you won't see any leader, politic or religious, supporting violent action. Those who would try it would be arrested on inciting violence charges, and nobody would protest about it.