CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Winners hung in there, losers cut and ran. Misfits, ne'er-do-wells and dead-beat dads fled West.
It's just a hypothesis.
It's just a hypothesis.
Bjorn
Off Topic
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2002
- Messages
- 2,968
And as BPSCG puts it, "they passed their lives' lessons and their values on to their children".Winners hung in there, losers cut and ran. Misfits, ne'er-do-wells and dead-beat dads fled West.
It's just a hypothesis.
This reminds me of a kid I once knew who would ride his bicycle on the local river when it was frozen (true story). I told him he was nuts because river ice can never be trusted. No problem he explained to me. He was absolutely sure that when the ice started breaking he would be able to push himself off the bike and run to safety. The bike would sink but he would be fine on the nearby thick ice. The kid is still alive and a young adult now but only because he never had to prove his theory.
Do you really think all of us that say we would use force to defend our property say so "just so I can play hero"? Or do you think that perhaps there is a different motivation?
And..."I would hope for the best" is not something I live my life by. I don't sit around on my hands, just hoping. I DO THINGS to get the results I want.
Remember the thread we had about US attitudes (and economic system), and the advancements of the industrial and technological ages? Well, the difference between "hope for the best" and "get up, fight, struggle, and do whatever it takes to get the results you are looking for" is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.
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Elind
Philosopher
Today perhaps, but I was refering to state sponsored, and enforced, religion. I have a brother in France, with French kids. He had a hell of time getting them named anything other than the official French church sponsored acceptable name list. That was some years ago, but it seemed like an insane situation when I first heard of it.
the point is that the riots are hurting the Moslems. It's their neighborhoods that are being hurt. Not cracking down on the FEW rioters (If everyone took to the streets they would pretty much have turned the Eiffel Tower into a Moslem study center by now), they are causing problems for the Moslem community as a whole. Good old dad has saved up for a delivery truck for his business, it gets torched. Most insurance policies do not cover riots. I wonder how many of these vehicles belong to poor families. They aren't torching a lot of BMW's. They all are in lock up garages. Who went to the nursery school, who takes public transportation? Not the rich government types. Rioting in LA and inner cities in USA lead to a terrible decline in businesses willing to build in the areas. Part of what Magic Johnson has been doing is trying to get businesses to reinvest in these areas.
As for parents trying to get the kids to stay in is kind of a cultural thing. There are fewer restrictions on young males that are considered adults at an earlier age than perhaps in another culture. Plus things aren't so great back in Africa for all those that wonder "why don't they just go back home?" For one thing, France is their home. And as bad as things are in France, honestly, in Northern Africa things are quite bad from both and economic and social freedom standpoint.
As for parents trying to get the kids to stay in is kind of a cultural thing. There are fewer restrictions on young males that are considered adults at an earlier age than perhaps in another culture. Plus things aren't so great back in Africa for all those that wonder "why don't they just go back home?" For one thing, France is their home. And as bad as things are in France, honestly, in Northern Africa things are quite bad from both and economic and social freedom standpoint.
As far as "another culture" goes...
If someone lives in one country, and for some reason is very unhappy there, and they move to a different country, where they are much happier...maybe they shouldn't have such a big chip on their shoulder about their home country's culture? Maybe they should spend some time in deep thought, reflecting on why it is that they have a better life in this new country, instead of the one that they chose to leave? Perhaps culture has something to do with why their new home is a better place to live than their old home. If they really liked their old country's culture that badly, maybe they should have stayed. We don't get everything we want in life. One might not have the choice of having BOTH a new, different, better country to live in, and also keeping a strong cultural identity with their old country. These are the kinds of decisions we make in life.
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This is a phenomenon known as "peeing in your own bath water." Fed up with The Establishment, rioters go and smash up the pawn shop. The pawnbroker will leave town in the aftermath, and where will the poor be able to borrow money at 20% a month* after that?
*No, that is not a typo.
Elind
Philosopher
I've address the religion question elsewhere. I was refering to the issue of state religion, and not in todays time (with Bush's state religion).
I wasn't addressing the issue of when to shoot or not to shoot. I was talking of the difference in the nature of immigration to the US (over many generations), versus the relatively rapid one in France in my lifetime.
However if you want my opinion on violence; If I had a gun, bat, ax or carving knife handy I would probably try to apply them to anyone that broke into my home. You would trust them to be nice to you?
Shoot them in the streets? I consider deliberate arson attempted murder. A few dead or wounded thugs two weeks ago would probably not have allowed the self confidence of the hooligans to build where it is now. They see only weakness, rightly so.
Please do note that this is not a comment on why this situation has been allowed to develop; just a reality of how to deal with disfunctional humans, however they came to be that way. We shouldn't forget that there are other options for protest in democracies, even for the poor. ML King proved that a long time ago.
I think that's a fair observation, too. Would it be fair to say that poor people who were dissatisfied with their lot left?
May have to amend my hypothesis. Thanks.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Separation has meant that Christianity in the US has avoided being identified with this kind of irritating nonsense. Christianity has been able to maintain a strong social standing by not being associated with politics (except in strongly Irish districts, of course
). Until recent decades, that is.Republcans and fundie religion may both come to regret their holy alliance.
I was thinking primarily of the great 19th and 20th century waves of immigration, but you're right.
Elind
Philosopher
I don't know that they will, unfortunately. The reason being that the closer they get the more they are one and the same; unless you mean that they will eventually lose elections as a result.
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
Of course, the really poor couldn't afford the passage. It was "Send us your poor ...", not "Let us come pick them up".
Still and all, you may have something there. It could explain why dissatisfaction is such a feature in the US. As I recall, it was Henry Ford who said "Our aim is to keep people reasonably dissatisfied with what they've got". Perhaps he was going with the grain in the US.
Elind
Philosopher
Well, I don't take you seriously either...
If I was dumb enough, I would actually try to engage you in a constructive debate.
But I have lurked long enough on this board to know that that would be a pointless exercise.
So I'll just keep on being annoying.
Obviously.
Well, there is this one particular group of people who did in fact get to the US because people came and picked them up.
(The frown is for the horrible abomination that is slavery, and the consequences of such action that are still being felt today. Wanted to make sure that people knew the frown was NOT because of the fact that there are many descendents of Africans living in the US now. Some racist pieces of garbage do in fact feel that way. And I wish such people would get the f*** out of my country.)CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
I do mean that. Fundie Christianity will be tainted by unpopular Republican policies, such as the Iraq War - which, as far as I can see, isn't a major fundie issue. The Republicans meanwhile will be tainted by purely fundie issues, such as ID. A Republican-Fundie alliance will be limited to the intersection of two sets of voters, rather than the sum. The Democrats will benefit from that, by abstention if nothing else. When this becomes clear, Republicans will start rowing away from the fundies pretty damn quick. With John McCain calling stroke
.CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
I did make previous reference to the involuntary migration from Africa.Well, there is this one particular group of people who did in fact get to the US because people came and picked them up.
Isn't it time their descendents got that 40 acres and a mule? Perhaps in Iraq? It's big enough, and it has mules.