what would be different if McCain had won in 08

[Brainster]

There would be a large contingent of right wing nutbag "Panamers" who think he's ineligible for office because he was born off-base in Panama.

Of course the nutbags would actually be left-wingers. You may have forgotten that the McCain Birthers were active in 2008:

Huffington Post: Arizona Law Professor: McCain Not Eligible To Be President.

New York Times: A Hint of New Life to a McCain Birth Issue.

MSNBC: McCain's citizenship called into question.

 

[Upchurch]

Of course the nutbags would actually be left-wingers. You may have forgotten that the McCain Birthers were active in 2008:

Huffington Post: Arizona Law Professor: McCain Not Eligible To Be President.

New York Times: A Hint of New Life to a McCain Birth Issue.

MSNBC: McCain's citizenship called into question.

Okay, first, at least two of those (if not all three) were referencing one guy's analysis. So arguably, you have a single example of a scholarly paper. And that is refuted by at least two other scholars. And even the academic who wrote the paper was quoted as saying:

"It's preposterous that a technicality like this can make a difference in an advanced democracy," Professor Chin said. "But this is the constitutional text that we have."

Second, that analysis was based on a technicality in the law, not the assumption that McCain (or his parents) misrepresented the circumstances of McCain's birth despite all the evidence to the contrary.


To claim that the "McCain Birthers" were the left-wing nutbag equivalent of Obama Birthers is disingenuous.

 

[TraneWreck]

Let me also add that the facts in McCain's case were never in dispute. He really was born in Panama. Thus, there is a question about we treat someone born in those situations. This is a perfectly valid thing to have a discussion about, and when it became clear that our laws were interpreted such that McCain was clearly eligible, people dropped it.

In Obama's case the entirety of the issue was purely fabricated from the beginning. There is no interesting question, just made up bullcrap. At every turn sufficient evidence was provided, but the attempted smears and idiotic conspiracy theories just kept building.

There's a major difference between these two situations:

1) Here are a set of facts, how do we interpret them?
2) We've made up a bunch of **** to justify a pre-arranged conclusion.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

To claim that the "McCain Birthers" were the left-wing nutbag equivalent of Obama Birthers is disingenuous.

For one thing, there were no Democratic "McCain Birthers" running (even informally) for their presidential nomination. In fact, the guy who's a shoe-in for the nomination actually co-sponsored a Senate resolution declaring in no uncertain terms McCain to be a natural born citizen eligible to be POTUS.

While a couple of the current field of GOP contenders have consistently distanced themselves from the Obama Birthers, at least a couple of them have been a lot more coy in an attempt to court said Birthers. And of course there was Trump. . .

 

[dvictr]

So you approve of the way Obama has handled a lot of things?

no im a libertarian

 

[Loss Leader]

The "backroom deal" I'm talking about was the selection of Ford to be VP knowing he'd become president by succession and pardon Nixon.

Is there any evidence that Ford was in on any of this? Or that he promised to pardon Nixon? In all cases, Ford was the President and he could have done whatever the heck he wanted. I think the pardon was the right way to go, but I don't think there was a deal in place. Ford made the decision on his own.

ETA: At any rate, my point was that the sequence of events was different than if President McCain would die. V.P. Palin would become president and she would appoint her VP who would then be in line for succession--not Speaker Pelosi.

Dear lard, who do you suppose she would have picked? A guy in a bear suit, probably.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Is there any evidence that Ford was in on any of this?

Ford's memoirs indicate that Haig first brought the idea to him, and also referred to the pardon. . . thing (negotiations?) as a "house of cards".

ETA: It's not much, I admit. It's certainly less than the evidence available to Ford that Nixon was guilty (also something he owned up to in his memoirs) despite his public statement to the contrary.

 

[Brainster]

Okay, first, at least two of those (if not all three) were referencing one guy's analysis. So arguably, you have a single example of a scholarly paper. And that is refuted by at least two other scholars. And even the academic who wrote the paper was quoted as saying:


Second, that analysis was based on a technicality in the law, not the assumption that McCain (or his parents) misrepresented the circumstances of McCain's birth despite all the evidence to the contrary.


To claim that the "McCain Birthers" were the left-wing nutbag equivalent of Obama Birthers is disingenuous.

They would be the left-wing nutbag equivalent of the Obama Birthers had McCain been elected. And they would get far more credence on the Left than the Obama Birthers have on the Right. The Obama Birthers have been roundly scorned by the large conservative blogs. I personally think they are morons.

BTW, Chin, once the prospect of a McCain presidency was gone, suddenly discovered that he was wrong. Or rather, that the birthers were wrong:

Most scholars, including me, believe that natural born citizenship extends further, to all of those who obtain citizenship at birth by law. Calvin's Case was about subjectship, duties owed by subjects to a monarch who claimed to rule by the grace of God. U.S. citizenship, by contrast, involves membership in a political community based on democratic principles. Those born overseas are natural born citizens not because of natural law, but because Congress determined that they are naturally part of the political community.

If this argument is right, then even if Obama had been born overseas, he is still a natural born citizen, because he obtained citizenship at birth through his mother who unquestionably was a U.S. citizen.

Amazing how his "belief" evolved on that particular topic.

 

[SezMe]

The more thought-provoking comparison is "what if Mitt Romney (governer of Mass. version) won the election?"

... The financial reforms and stimulus are likely exactly the same...

Can't agree on that one. Mittens is a captive of Wall Street. There would been no financial reform at all, certainly no Consumer Protect Bureau (or whatever its proper name is) and nobody would know who Elizabeth Warren is.

 

[cesarz]

Well Americans had to choose between Douche and Turd.
Probably Mccain would do almost the same things as Obama (apart from ObamaCare of course) as far as US go.
As for rest of the world he would be more supportive for Israel and more harsh on Russia, thats all.

 

[Upchurch]

They would be the left-wing nutbag equivalent of the Obama Birthers had McCain been elected. And they would get far more credence on the Left than the Obama Birthers have on the Right.

Really? How do you know this? Evidence?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

They would be the left-wing nutbag equivalent of the Obama Birthers had McCain been elected. And they would get far more credence on the Left than the Obama Birthers have on the Right. The Obama Birthers have been roundly scorned by the large conservative blogs. I personally think they are morons.

So which potential Democratic candidates for POTUS were at least sympathetic to the McCain Birther idea? I can list a few GOP ones that were definitely courting the Obama Birther vote.

Sorry--your claim that Leftists McCain Birthers get more than do Obama Birthers credence is debunked by this observation alone.

 

[TraneWreck]

Can't agree on that one. Mittens is a captive of Wall Street. There would been no financial reform at all, certainly no Consumer Protect Bureau (or whatever its proper name is) and nobody would know who Elizabeth Warren is.

THat's true. I should have left out the "reforms" part. I think Mass. Romney does the bailouts and probably some level of stimulus, but you're correct. DADT and the reform bill, especially the consumer protection portions, would not have come into being.

Although it will be interesting to see how strongly Obama defends Warren as Issa and the other moron Republicans try to bring her down. So far his efforts on her behalf following the nomination have been tepid.

 

[Brainster]

Really? How do you know this? Evidence?

This is a speculative thread, right? How exactly does one produce evidence of what would have happened if McCain had won?

 

[Chaos]

This is a speculative thread, right? How exactly does one produce evidence of what would have happened if McCain had won?

So why should we consider your claims that McCain Birthers would match the Obama Birthers in insanity find any more credible than claims that the McCain Birthers would hardly be a blip on the radar?

I mean, other than your righteous right-wing hatred of all things liberal, of course...

 

[cesarz]

Liberals also hate all things conservative so i think it goes both ways

 

[davefoc]

Iraq and Afghanistan: Very few changes. Obama is implementing the policy that Bush was at the end of his presidency (as opposed to the incompetent and corrupt Cheney led occupation at the beginning of Bush's presidency).

Economy: about the same. Bush was ramping up spending at the end of his hyper spending administration to combat the fiscal crisis and recession. McCain would have probably done about the same as Obama and maintained the Bush policies. The special interests that benefited from the out of control spending would have been different, but the situation for most Americans would be similar.

My uninformed view was that Obama could have done a better job of handling the banking crisis. McCain might have done better but it wouldn't be by a huge amount.

Health care: McCain wanted to separate health care from employment. That was a good idea. He probably would not have succeeded with the implementation of his idea on that and no significant changes to the health care system would have been enacted.

Israel/Palestinians: Probably about the same. The Israeli militants seem to hate Obama, but McCain would have probably done about the same things and they would have kept their mouths shut.

Detroit handouts: Detroit unions are a Democratic interest group. It is unlikely that they would have fared as well under McCain as they did under Obama. But the cash giveaways started under Bush and McCain probably would have continued them even if at a somewhat lower level than for Obama.

Wildcard: Palin presidency. Palin was one of the wackier people to be reasonably close to gaining the American presidency. How that would have gone is a very tough to guess. Bush, a man with some apparent intellectual issues, was the worst president of my life. The full effect of his disastrous presidency is generations away from being completely eliminated. The failure of the Bush presidency suggests that it may be very bad for the country to have people with clear cut intellectual issues become president.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Hmm with a democrat house and sentate I guess it would look awfully like bush's last two years in office.

Probably more troops still in Iraq and not even an attempt to finish afghanistan.

The recession would probably have ended up doing even more damage to those caught by it.

Obviously no attempt at healthcare reform but probably less of a tea party.

Absolutely no head of state anywhere would have died.

I think this fits along the lines of what was more likely. Bush had 20% approval ratings, and the Republican party was facing tough challenges with a new sweep of democrats taking the house and senate. The same near-super majority that Obama benefited from likely would have crimped any bills McCain tried to pass (the split in majorities with the house and senate are doing this to Obama now)

Not too worried about whether the Palin wild card would have played through, Biden took her place when Obama took office, but neither one has had a heart attack or stroke from their days in politics, which to me at least is arguably one of the ugliest jobs you can have. I'll worry when one of them runs for president (again in the case of Biden)

 

[Upchurch]

This is a speculative thread, right? How exactly does one produce evidence of what would have happened if McCain had won?

Ah. In that case, those left-wing nutbag equivalent of the Obama Birthers would have been found out to be right-wing nutbags in disguise trying to make centrists who disapprove of McCain's policies look bad. Also, they're alien clones from another dimension.

I mean, if our speculations need not have any basis in reality...