• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

What will the Conservatives new "EU policy" be?

Darat

Lackey
Staff member
Darat
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
125,750
Location
South East, UK
Well the Conservatives "cast-iron promise" to have a referendum isn't being kept to. Now granted that circumstances have changed but it seems rather strange that when the circumstances changed for Labour's promise of a referendum on the Constitutional Treaty the Conservatives claimed that was still breaking a commitment. You'd almost think the Conservatives applied different standards to keeping their promises compared to Labour's....

And today we will get to hear what the Tories new EU policy will be. Anyone want to speculate - I say the following:

1) We don't like the Lisbon treaty and we'll tell everyone in Europe that.
1a) But we won't do anything about it

2) A "promise" that any further "loss of sovereignty" will not happen under the Tories. (And lets face it the Tories know all about "signing away sovereignty"!)
2a) A "promise" that any further treaties that would result in a further "loss of sovereignty", even though that will never happen - again - under a Tory government, will not be passed without a referendum.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Looks like I'm psychic:

Cameron said:
"What has happened is that the politicians who run this country [Ed: see Margaret Thatcher & John Major] have given away a lot of power to Brussels without asking people first.

"I am going to make sure that that never, ever happens again. That's what today is going to be about."
Click to expand...
 
I honestly don't know what Cameron's trying to do in Europe any more - increasingly, I'm suspecting that even he doesn't know. The old Thatcher model of distracting the electorate at home with tough talk while signing various pro-Brussels treaties abroad isn't going to work for him, firstly because the Tory voting base liked Thatcher far more than they like him, but secondly because he's stupidly thrown away most of the influence a Cameron government would have in Europe by leaving the centre-right and joining the Pan-European Wackaloons and Racists' Committee.

The newspapers' reaction, on the other hand, is pretty easy to read: Murdoch, Desmond and Rothermere are just petrified that they might have to obey a government that doesn't grovel to them as much as the British one always does. Under EU law they might have to pay some taxes, for example, and that would never do.
 
So lets see how I did, all quotes from Cameron's speech:

1)
And I want to speak to our European partners too, to set out clearly what they can expect from a Conservative government in Britain.
.​
1a)
"I did not promise a referendum come what may, because once the Lisbon Treaty becomes law there is nothing people can do about it."​


2)
So as well as making sure that further power cannot be handed to the EU without a referendum, we will also introduce a new law, in the form of a United Kingdom Sovereignty Bill, to make it clear that ultimate authority stays in this country, in our Parliament.​
2a)
Never again should it be possible for a British government to transfer power to the EU without the say of the British people. If we win the next election, we will amend the European Communities Act 1972 to prohibit, by law, the transfer of power to the EU without a referendum.​

4 out of 4!
 
Two terms of a Conservative government, thankfully I didn't get the runner's up prize - three terms of a conservative government.
 
Here is what has transpired, as far as I can make out:

Labour promised a referendum on a different treaty.

Treaty didn't pass in France and the Netherlands. UK referendum abandoned.

Tories tell us that Labour 'Promised us a referendum' and are now breaking their promise, despite the fact that Lisbon is a different (Albeit fairly similar) treaty.

Cameron tells us that "I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations."

Tories break promise on holding a referendum on the actual treaty in question.
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Here is what has transpired, as far as I can make out:

Labour promised a referendum on a different treaty.

Treaty didn't pass in France and the Netherlands. UK referendum abandoned.

Tories tell us that Labour 'Promised us a referendum' and are now breaking their promise, despite the fact that Lisbon is a different (Albeit fairly similar) treaty.

Cameron tells us that "I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations."

Tories break promise on holding a referendum on the actual treaty in question.
Click to expand...

Impressive quibbling and editing of history to make it seem like it's only the Tories at fault here. Really impressive!

Now, when the party in government pledges a referendum on the EU Constitution, then backs down over the issue when they lose any courage of their convictions, using the 'out' that the Lisbon Treaty is different to quibbling their way out of it, I'd say that's a pretty bad betrayal of the country. Let's not forget a referendum was promised in the Labour Manifesto of 2005. Lets not also forget that the guy who designed the constitution freely admitted that the Lisbon Treaty was just the constitution redesigned in a manner that would let governments get around the need for referendums.

Now, while I'd much rather Cameron have pledged a referendum on the issue, regardless of the legal issues, the promise he's made to put in a Sovereignty law, ensuring that any future changes need a referendum do somewhat satisfy me.
 
Uzzy said:
Impressive quibbling and editing of history to make it seem like it's only the Tories at fault here. Really impressive!

Now, when the party in government pledges a referendum on the EU Constitution, then backs down over the issue when they lose any courage of their convictions, using the 'out' that the Lisbon Treaty is different to quibbling their way out of it, I'd say that's a pretty bad betrayal of the country. Let's not forget a referendum was promised in the Labour Manifesto of 2005. Lets not also forget that the guy who designed the constitution freely admitted that the Lisbon Treaty was just the constitution redesigned in a manner that would let governments get around the need for referendums.

Now, while I'd much rather Cameron have pledged a referendum on the issue, regardless of the legal issues, the promise he's made to put in a Sovereignty law, ensuring that any future changes need a referendum do somewhat satisfy me.
Click to expand...

Let us not forget that the that the High Court determined that the two treaties were not the same.
 
Let us not also forget that Valéry Giscard d'Estaing claims they are the same document, just repackaged. But hey, keep quibbling. That'll win you the argument over Europe.
 
Darat said:
Let us not forget that the that the High Court determined that the two treaties were not the same.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean much. It's fairly tivial to produce things that are legaly different but work exactly the same way on the ground (generaly by aiming to reach the same conclusion through two different lines of legal argument).
 
Uzzy said:
backs down over the issue when they lose any courage of their convictions,
Click to expand...

Like the Tories.

For what it's worth, I'd have liked a referendum. That doesn't stop me from highlighting how deeply hypocritical the Tories have been.

When Cameron says: 'Never again', is he referring to the Tory Government who rejected calls for a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty? Was he an active campaigner for a referendum back then?
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Like the Tories.

For what it's worth, I'd have liked a referendum. That doesn't stop me from highlighting how deeply hypocritical the Tories have been.

When Cameron says: 'Never again', is he referring to the Tory Government who rejected calls for a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty? Was he an active campaigner for a referendum back then?
Click to expand...

Well, I'm certainly glad you want a referendum, though I anticipate we'd be on opposite sides over it. ;)

I too think the Tories lost a bit of courage, but for purely political reasons, I can see why they abandoned the referendum. It's much harder to convince people to leave something then to join something, and a defeat in such a referendum, over something that may not be legally or politically possible, would be a disaster to the Eurosceptics.

On the bright side, the Lisbon Treaty does have a mechanism for leaving the EU. One I hope Cameron puts into use as soon as possible (after a referendum on the issue, of course!)
 
Uzzy said:
On the bright side, the Lisbon Treaty does have a mechanism for leaving the EU. One I hope Cameron puts into use as soon as possible (after a referendum on the issue, of course!)
Click to expand...

You apparently like referenda but dislike the EU. Are you some kind of self hating continental?

In any case loseing the free trade advantages of the EU would be kinda foolish at this point.
 
I'm not sure as to how Cameron can do anything about the Lisbon treaty now.
 
geni said:
You apparently like referenda but dislike the EU. Are you some kind of self hating continental?

In any case loseing the free trade advantages of the EU would be kinda foolish at this point.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about leaving the Free Trade Bloc? Anyway, I am a fan of referenda on key constitutional issues, and leaving the EU would be one of those. I'm also British.
 
Uzzy said:
Let us not also forget that Valéry Giscard d'Estaing claims they are the same document, just repackaged. But hey, keep quibbling. That'll win you the argument over Europe.
Click to expand...

He also appears to claim he had a relationship with Princess Diana (if you read his recently published novel).

For some reason that reminds of the old, slightly sleazy adverts for Cointreau in the 80s.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom