What We Saw - Bob & Bri (Not what we heard)

[Moving On]

Russell,

Now you've hit the nail directly on the head.

Something I've been afraid to write for fear of it being taken out of context.

There were LOTS of explosions throughout the mornong. While I was watching the towers fireballs would shoot out of the holes in the buildings and there would be an enormous "whoosh" like if you would light a gas grill, but a million times bigger.

jujigatami,

I understand and do not intend to take you out of context. You also have not provided any specifics about any explosion for me to do so.

There are just too many accounts of them from various sources to ignore. Since we do not have specific times or locations, the nature of the multiple explosions throughout the morning will probably always be contested/misunderstood.

We already found out that one Rick Siegel claimed was related to the North Tower collapse was in fact not. I assume others may follow the same fate and yet others will remain unknown.

Russell

 

[GlennB]

I hope you don't mind that I've copied your account over to the UK 9/11 CT forum.
Regrettably, they will class it as the work of a "shill", which is a crying shame

A very moving story. Thank you, and all the best.

 

[T.A.M.]

jujigatami,

I understand and do not intend to take you out of context. You also have not provided any specifics about any explosion for me to do so.

There are just too many accounts of them from various sources to ignore. Since we do not have specific times or locations, the nature of the multiple explosions throughout the morning will probably always be contested/misunderstood.

We already found out that one Rick Siegel claimed was related to the North Tower collapse was in fact not. I assume others may follow the same fate and yet others will remain unknown.

Russell

Russ;

Can I ask you why, as a fireman, you think that multiple accounts of "explosions" must equal "Explosives".

Step back, forget 9/11, and the circumstances, and answer me this,

If a 110 storey skysraper had been hit by a huge jetliner, was about to, and then did collapse, and had 8-10 storeys worth of fire, would you not EXPECT multiple explosions.

It just seems odd to me, that with your experience, and from what I have heard from other firemen, that you would not accept explosions for what they likely were, things exploding within the building, and in many cases the onset of the collapse itself.

TAM

 

[stateofgrace]

jujigatami,

Thank you for sharing your story.

stateofgrace

 

[Gravy]

jujigatami,

I understand and do not intend to take you out of context. You also have not provided any specifics about any explosion for me to do so.

There are just too many accounts of them from various sources to ignore. Since we do not have specific times or locations, the nature of the multiple explosions throughout the morning will probably always be contested/misunderstood.

We already found out that one Rick Siegel claimed was related to the North Tower collapse was in fact not. I assume others may follow the same fate and yet others will remain unknown.

Russell

There are many accounts of explosions that the CTs claim are suspicious or mysterious, but when put in context, aren't. I took a look at the "bomb" statements in a recent post. From the intro:

In this thread TS1234 posted a link to this "peer-reviewed" paper in the Journal for 9/11 Studies. The paper lists various first-person accounts of things that sounded or looked like explosions at the WTC on 9/11. I took a look at the most provocative category, which is people who said they heard or saw what they described as "like bombs going off" or "like secondary devices." The paper lists 31 FDNY members who described such events. Here's my breakdown of what they heard and saw.

 

[Moving On]

Gravy,

The paper lists 31 FDNY members who described such events. Here's my breakdown of what they heard and saw.

I know things can be reinterpreted. The initial response is always interesting to me in a subjective account. I even notice in some of the ones below they try and interpret it in light of what they later believed or were told had happened. There were a few that reported 3 explosions too. Some of these were high ranking guys.

The following are a couple of names I didn't see on your list (If I did duplicate I didn't mean to):

Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22] We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.

Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 6] We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.
...
We were standing in a circle in the middle of West Street. They were talking about what was going on. At that time, when I heard the 3 loud explosions, I started running west on Vesey Street towards the water. At that time, I couldn't run fast enough. The debris caught up with me, knocked my helmet off.

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53] It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down. With that everybody was just stunned for a second or two, looking at the tower coming down.

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 11] There was nobody in the intersection, nobody in the streets in general, everyone just saying come on, keeping coming, keep coming. That's when [the North Tower] went. I looked back. You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down. I turned my head and everybody was scattering. From there I don't know who was who. I don't even know where my guys went. None of us knew where each other were at at that point in time.

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8] I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.
...
You did hear the explosions [when the North Tower came down]. Of course after the first one -- the first one was pretty much looking at in like in awe. You didn't realize that this was really happening because you kind of just stood there and you didn't react as fast as you thought you were going to. The second one coming down, you knew the explosions. Now you're very familiar with it.

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) I grabbed her and the Lieutenant picked her up by the legs and we start walking over slowly to the curb, and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.
...
North Tower:
We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy s___, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said s___ and everybody started running and I started running behind them, and we get to the door.

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander] And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.

James Curran -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) A guy started scremaing to run. When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and you heard it, I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed.

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.
Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8] After a while we were looking up at the tower, and all of a sudden someone said it's starting to come down.
...
This would be the first one.
...
This one here. It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.) Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) I was watching the fire, watching the people jump and hearing a noise and looking up and seeing -- it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out. Then I guess in some sense of time we looked at it and realized, no, actually it just collapsed. That's what blew out the windows, not that there was an explosion there but that windows blew out. The realization hit that it's going to fall down, the top's coming off. I was still thinking -- there was never a thought that this whole thing is coming down. I thought that that blew out and stuff is starting to fly down. The top is going to topple off there.

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.) We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV. I would have to say for three or four seconds anyway, maybe longer. I was just watching. It was interesting to watch, but the thing that woke everybody up was the cloud of black material. It reminded me of the 10 commandments when the green clouds come down on the street. The black cloud was coming down faster than the building, so whatever was coming down was going to hit the street and it was pretty far out. You knew it wasn't coming right down. Judging from where people were jumping before that, this cloud was much further.

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) I looked up, and the building exploded, the building that we were very close to, which was one tower. The whole top came off like a volcano.
...
So now both towers have been hit by a plane. The north tower was burning. So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22] North Tower:
John Malley, who was right behind me, I turned around for him, because he was doing something, either putting his coat on or something, and as I was looking at him I heard the explosion, looked up, and saw like three floors explode, saw the antenna coming down, and turned around and ran north.

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
[It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw.
...
He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them too.
...
I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like at eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes.

________________________________________________________________

The list is alphabetical. I'll stop here. No need to debunk each quote. I am aware of some of their attempts to explain what they saw in retrospect. It is the first impression I find interesting. These are 16 quotes from the firefighter oral histories. If you want to read the other 27 I didn't post you can go to Jim Hoffman's site here:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html

I personally can not write off and ignore all of these first impressions from firefighters. In many of these accounts in regards to Bob and Bri's video they would have taken place during the South Tower collapse dissolve or the 5 seconds either not recorded or cut from the North Tower collapse. Maybe that's why they don't want people asking for the original file.

Whenever I look at the towers I have to remember to multiply x2. They are saying the variables of jet fuel and damage occurred twice in the same spot to result in an identical phenomenon that had an identical visual appearance.

In light of the drum beat type sound in the following video, I have to keep my mind open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch44AzFpmW4

These firefighters describe the above video very well.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2032865563019209801&q=wtc+firefighters

Russell

 

[Gravy]

Russell, my post was only in response to the 31 "bomb" accounts in the "Journal" paper.

I have read and taken notes on over 14,000 pages of first responder accounts, including all of the FDNY oral histories, so I think I have a good grasp on who said and heard what and when. Thanks for these accounts, though. I'll make sure I have them all.

ETA: I'm glad that, like me, you do not write off or ignore these first impressions. What I do is make sure they are in context with the other statements and with the events of the day.

Your speculation about possible nefarious motives of Bob and Bri is unwarranted. Please stop.

 

[LashL]

In many of these accounts in regards to Bob and Bri's video they would have taken place during the South Tower collapse dissolve or the 5 seconds either not recorded or cut from the North Tower collapse. Maybe that's why they don't want people asking for the original file.

Russell,

You are yet again insinuating that these people have done something nefarious, even though you have not made any attempts to contact them.

That's just wrong.

Any honorable researcher would either contact these people and ask his questions directly or, alternatively, refrain from insinuating that these people are guilty of some kind of wrongdoing unless and until he has done so.

You can't have it both ways. An honorable researcher would either get on with it or stop making such insinuations about them.

 

[DavidJames]

Maybe that's why they don't want people asking for the original file.

This is the second time now that you've made this error, it now appears you are being blatantly dishonest. They said, in the sentence before they made that comment that they would release the unedited file. Why are you omitting and/or ignoring that. I can think of no reason other then intellectual dishonesty on your part.

I have to keep my mind open.

As the saying goes, but not so much that your brain falls out.

 

[Moving On]

Gravy, LashL and David,

Your admonitions are well received.

Let me explain. I do not feel they are being "nefarious". I believe they are like many witnesses in that they are afraid to show or say some things. Bob and Bri expressed the concern for "misuse".

They are justified by the actions of some Cters.

In the end, facts do get diminished though if something is withheld.

Even if they release the "unedited" version they have made it clear that the original file is not available. What's the difference? The difference is that the original file has all of the data to determine the details of edits that couldn't be proved by the "unedited" version.

The South Tower dissolve and the 5 seconds cut/not recorded at the North Tower collapse could potentially contain important data. The reason they gave for the dissolves of being redundant and to save space are just questionable. That is all I will say about it.

I will restrain my comments and observations for now. I apologize.

On the other side of the coin, I have not received a reply from Rick Siegel on his mistaken explosions prior to the North Tower collapse. I gave him all the evidence so we will see what happens. I look at both sides.

Russell

 

[uk_dave]

I have mentioned the Naudet footage several times now. They had video footage taken prior to, during, and after, both tower collapses. Both pieces of footage are continuous. One is easily within 2 miles of the buildings, and of course the other is actually physically INSIDE one of the towers.

Neither of these pieces of footage catch explosions.


-Gumboot

I totally agree.

The CT'ers are very fond of ignoring the naudet film, except to suggest that they were part of the conspiracy.

The second tower collapse was filmed within the shadow of the building. The Naudet brother (can't remember which) had to run for his life and ended up sheltering behind a parked vehicle while the 'pyroclastic flow' surged around him.

But of course, it's much more satisfying to have videos shot from may hundreds of metres away with poor sound and no context.

 

[Moving On]

POSSIBLE CORRECTION/EXAGGERATION:

I had posted this video I found on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch44AzFpmW4

I just found another version of it on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlCUrUbYgE

The sound is very different.

I am looking into the source of the original file.

Russell

 

[gumboot]

POSSIBLE CORRECTION/EXAGGERATION:

I had posted this video I found on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch44AzFpmW4

I just found another version of it on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlCUrUbYgE

The sound is very different.

I am looking into the source of the original file.

Russell

Russell I admire your honesty and integrity in your quest. I hope you now can appreciate the lack of "precision" I had in claiming the other video you posted had "fake" or "altered" sound.

Sound is a difficult medium to describe, especially nuances.

The other video has "different" sound to the other I saw in much the same way that these two have "different" sound.

-Gumboot

 

[DavidJames]

Even if they release the "unedited" version they have made it clear that the original file is not available.

So you want them to send you the physical media which contains the original file?

What's the difference? The difference is that the original file has all of the data to determine the details of edits that couldn't be proved by the "unedited" version.

Unless I misread this, you are saying they are lying and will not provide an unedited copy of the original.

 

[realitybites]

Russell, I'm not sure I'm picking up on your difference between "original" and "unedited". It appears you feel there's a some significant disparity between the two.

 

[Pythra]

I take "Please do not request a copy of the original file" to mean "Please stop bothering us about this because we are in the process of making it available." This is not an unreasonable request.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Russell,

The Naudet documentary can probably be purchased at most DVD stores. Alternatively, it is available at many places online (I downloaded it because it is not currently available in NZ).

I expect you will find their footage from the South Tower collapse relatively useful - it is taken from inside the WTC1 lobby. It is important to take note of more than just the sounds on the tape, as well. Take not of the attitudes of the firemen. Do they act like they are hearing explosions? Or that they might have earlier? Or is there a sense of bewilderment in their eyes as they first hear the increasing roar as WTC2 crashes to the ground?

I have been an actor, and have worked around actors, my entire life. The look on Chief Pfeifer's face in that moment is not acting. It is genuine.

Bear in mind he send his brother up into WTC1 that day. His brother died.

(I don't mean to imply you think FDNY were in on it, but I am anticipating that as the only realistic come-back to my "notice reaction of firemen" claim)

-Gumboot

Also available for rent from Blockbuster in the Chicagoland area.

 

[Skibum]

My bad, wasn't paying attention.

 

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Gravy, LashL and David,

Your admonitions are well received.

Let me explain. I do not feel they are being "nefarious". I believe they are like many witnesses in that they are afraid to show or say some things. Bob and Bri expressed the concern for "misuse".

They are justified by the actions of some Cters.

In the end, facts do get diminished though if something is withheld.

Even if they release the "unedited" version they have made it clear that the original file is not available. What's the difference? The difference is that the original file has all of the data to determine the details of edits that couldn't be proved by the "unedited" version.

The South Tower dissolve and the 5 seconds cut/not recorded at the North Tower collapse could potentially contain important data. The reason they gave for the dissolves of being redundant and to save space are just questionable. That is all I will say about it.

I will restrain my comments and observations for now. I apologize.

On the other side of the coin, I have not received a reply from Rick Siegel on his mistaken explosions prior to the North Tower collapse. I gave him all the evidence so we will see what happens. I look at both sides.

Russell

I'm finding this thread very interesting to read, and though I'm sure I can't offer anything of much use to the conversation, only one observation:

It's quite a leap of faith to believe that anyone would fear 'show[ing] or say[ing] some things'. Why do you think that is the case? It's evidence! It's reality!

If I took a video of a guy pushing down a plunger connected to a box leading to the WTC, and the building immediately exploding, I'd be the first to post it; everywhere. Why? Because it would be evidence!

The piles and piles of evidence support the official story of the collapse of the towers. If good and irrefutable evidence came out supporting a controlled demolition, many people here would be the first in line to support it... But they haven't. Why?

The key is to be able to look at all of the evidence, and evaluate it without a prior bias. Many posters here do not support the war or George Bush in any way, yet still don't believe that the government was behind 9/11. Why do you think this is?

 

[DavidJames]

Let me editorialize for a minute. Some CTist fashion themselves as current day "Columbo's". They are the rogue detective who will recreate the crime, interview the suspects and in a "gotcha" moment, only found in 60 minute TV shows, will uncover the criminals using only wit and guile. No fancy degree, or expertise in various technologies needed.

We've all seen the shows, all the evidence is pointing in one direction, but in walks our hero and with some clever questioning or observation gets the criminal to unwittingly reveal his guilt.

Criminal: "I think it's horrible the way she was repeatedly stabbed"
Our Hero: "I never said anything about her being stabbed:"
GOTCHA (think Larry's pull it, or Rummy's missile comment).

Or
Criminal: "She was murdered in the afternoon, I was there at breakfast, here is a photograph as proof"
Our Hero: "Let me see the photograph one more time". "AH-Ha, Do you see the shadow, clearly that shadow is from an afternoon sun."
GOTCHA (think of all the video's and pictures)