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What We Believe But Cannot Prove

I am a truly rational person and I regard the existence of Creator Gods as the only rational explanation of existence. As all the other explanations I have come across over the years don't actually explain it. essentially they are don't knows.

gods are no rational explenation for existence.
to me they are no explenation at all.
something existed always and created us and the universe is no answer.
no indication points to the existence of any such gods.
it is merely based on the premise that a causeless cause must have caused us.
but when gods can be causeless, why cannot our universe? etc etc.
 
If smurfs had the quality of being able to create physical universes, I would take them quite seriously.

So it's just the power level of the imaginary being? Do you take Doctor Who moderately seriously then? I don't know if he can create physical universes, but there was that one episode where he triggered the Big Bang (or maybe almost stopped it happening by mistake, I forget the details).
 
gods are no rational explenation for existence.
to me they are no explenation at all.
And the alternative explanation is?
something existed always and created us and the universe is no answer.
I am not thinking of omnipotent Gods in this instance, as such I am not saying they always existed.
no indication points to the existence of any such gods.
No indication points to their non existence.
it is merely based on the premise that a causeless cause must have caused us.
I am not claiming a causeless God here, I see no reason why a creator of our universe would necessarily be causeless.
but when gods can be causeless, why cannot our universe? etc etc.
Good point, our universe may be causeless. This implies that it has no beginning and no end, which begs other questions about existence.
 
So it's just the power level of the imaginary being? Do you take Doctor Who moderately seriously then? I don't know if he can create physical universes, but there was that one episode where he triggered the Big Bang (or maybe almost stopped it happening by mistake, I forget the details).

Yes it is the powers which are important, not the name. The creator God I am thinking of might well be rather like Dr Who, well not so accident prone and would be more aware of what he/she was doing.

An intelligent entity operating technology which generated the Big Bang for example.
 
I haven't defined this creature, its improbability can not been addressed without a description of its attributes. I am refering to the possibility that they might be present.

If we don't know what is present beyond our current understanding, it is foolish to deny the presence of anything beyond our current understanding.

Can't you see that at that point we can all just make stuff up and choose to believe in that?

Making stuff up is not good critical thinking.


ETA-

I have just added to my definition of Smurf the ability to create and manipulate universes. Are the Surfs now to be taken seriously and not dismissed out of hand?
 
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And the alternative explanation is?

I am not thinking of omnipotent Gods in this instance, as such I am not saying they always existed.

No indication points to their non existence.

I am not claiming a causeless God here, I see no reason why a creator of our universe would necessarily be causeless.

Good point, our universe may be causeless. This implies that it has no beginning and no end, which begs other questions about existence.

when your god is not causeless, then he is even less an answer, how did he come into existence? He would be merely one step in existence. Did your god evolve? was he created by other gods? how came they into existence etc etc.

all indication point to the non existence of gods.
We have pretty good explenations of how our universe formed. and not one of those explenations involves any gods. All explanations involving gods have been shown to be wrong.
 
the thing is, for me at least, the skeptical position isn't "I have seen no evidence for X, therefore it does not exist". It's more like "I have seen no evidence so far that suggests X, therefore there is no reason yet to act like X exists"
 
the thing is, for me at least, the skeptical position isn't "I have seen no evidence for X, therefore it does not exist". It's more like "I have seen no evidence so far that suggests X, therefore there is no reason yet to act like X exists"

This goes back to what Beth was talking about: what is the default null hypothesis, atheism or theism? The theist will say that evidence of God's work is all around them, since a foundational belief of theirs is God created the universe. The atheist would say that there's no evidence for God since a foundational belief for them is the universe was created through natural processes.


Since we don't know if reality is theistic (one or more gods exist) or atheistic (no gods exist), agnosticism is the rational starting position to take.
 
I'd argue that most atheists do start from a position of agnosticism. I'm certainly not saying I know no god exists. Rather I'm saying that I don't see evidence for any of them.

I fully accept that there could be a god. However I see no reason to assume there is one (and certainly no reason to assume that if there is a god it's the christian one).

I don't think that asking for evidence of something before assuming its existence is a "foundational belief". No belief is required.
 
This goes back to what Beth was talking about: what is the default null hypothesis, atheism or theism? The theist will say that evidence of God's work is all around them, since a foundational belief of theirs is God created the universe. The atheist would say that there's no evidence for God since a foundational belief for them is the universe was created through natural processes.


Since we don't know if reality is theistic (one or more gods exist) or atheistic (no gods exist), agnosticism is the rational starting position to take.

I still prefer Ignosticism :).
 
Yes it is the powers which are important, not the name. The creator God I am thinking of might well be rather like Dr Who, well not so accident prone and would be more aware of what he/she was doing.

An intelligent entity operating technology which generated the Big Bang for example.

Or maybe a magic fairie with super-duper universe creating powers?
 
This is mostly correct, but you have misunderstood one detail. You are correct that the null hypothesis is accepted without evidence rejected with strong evidence supporting the alternative. But there is no requirement about which statement will be the null and which the alternative. Which hypothesis is the null and which the alternative is at the discretion of the researcher conducting the test.
While this is in fact true, it's not the entire truth. The whole point of a null hypothesis is that one must demonstrate that there's something worth explaining prior to offering any explanation--you have to prove that there's something there before you talk about what that something is. This means that some null hypotheses are better than others. For example, if I give you population curves over geologic time, a good null hypothesis is that they're driven by random chance, that all we're seeing is statistical noise. Once we demonstrate that it's NOT statistical noise, we can move on to discusing what is actually happening. A bad null hypothesis is that the population curves are driven by predation pressures.

Using "God exists" as a null hypothesis is even worse than that, because it presumes the very hypothesis we're trying to determine the validity of. This is nothing short of begging the question. Don't get me wrong, there are some cases where this is useful. For example, we could say "Let's assume that the Muslim god exists. What would our universe be like?" This is no longer a null hypothesis, however; it's into Strong Inferrence at this point. We have two competing hypotheses (the Muslim god exists, or it doesn't), which are mutually exclusive, cover the entire range of possible outcomes (meaning that the Muslim god can either exist or not; proof that the Muslim god doesn't exist does not necessarily have any bearing on any other god), and there are tests which can clearly show which is correct. This has nothing to do with null hypotheses, however; it's a completely different type of hypothesis-generation.

The only good null hypothesis in the case of "____ exists" is "____ does not exist". Otherwise, again, you're simply begging the question.

Malerin said:
The theist will say that evidence of God's work is all around them, since a foundational belief of theirs is God created the universe.
And this shows why Beth is wrong. As soon as you say "The evidence supports my possition" you are by definition NOT talking about a null hypothesis. You're arguing that the null hypothesis is wrong, and that your possition is correct (two different arguments, but they are both assumed).

The atheist would say that there's no evidence for God since a foundational belief for them is the universe was created through natural processes.
There's no belief involved. We can conclude that there are no gods because there has not been enough evidence presented, of sufficient quality, to cause us to reject the null hypothesis. This has nothing to do with belief; it's a simple matter of not begging the question.

Lamuella said:
the thing is, for me at least, the skeptical position isn't "I have seen no evidence for X, therefore it does not exist". It's more like "I have seen no evidence so far that suggests X, therefore there is no reason yet to act like X exists"
Exactly.
 
Countless doesn't help us. Can you point to ONE specific example of a poster seriously claiming that "science proves there is no God"?

I've never seen a poster say that. There is no hard evidence for the existence of any god or gods is the usual line of thought.
 
This goes back to what Beth was talking about: what is the default null hypothesis, atheism or theism? The theist will say that evidence of God's work is all around them, since a foundational belief of theirs is God created the universe. The atheist would say that there's no evidence for God since a foundational belief for them is the universe was created through natural processes.


Since we don't know if reality is theistic (one or more gods exist) or atheistic (no gods exist), agnosticism is the rational starting position to take.

What do you think the default position on the existence of Smurfs is?
 
Malerin said:
Since we don't know if reality is theistic (one or more gods exist) or atheistic (no gods exist), agnosticism is the rational starting position to take.
Theism: Belief in one or more gods
Atheism: No belief in gods
Agnosticism: The belief that one cannot know about gods

One of these things is not like the others.....
 
This goes back to what Beth was talking about: what is the default null hypothesis, atheism or theism? The theist will say that evidence of God's work is all around them, since a foundational belief of theirs is God created the universe. The atheist would say that there's no evidence for God since a foundational belief for them is the universe was created through natural processes.
No. There's no evidence for God because there's no evidence for God. The theists are attempting to retrofit an undefined entity to the evidence. That's not even a hypothesis.

Since we don't know if reality is theistic (one or more gods exist) or atheistic (no gods exist), agnosticism is the rational starting position to take.
Nope. Agnosticism isn't a position on the existence of God. Atheism is the null hypothesis.
 
You and Pixy are misrepresenting my position, I do not follow the usual theistic line of reasoning on this issue.

I don't seek to draw this to far towards philosophy in the Science forum, as I've been told off before for that. I will merely point out that whatever reasoning you choose to put regarding this issue you can only end up with a don't know.
Baloney!

The evidence is overwhelming that gods are fictional beings. Fictional stories are not evidence of anything except human ingenuity. End of inquiry.



All science and human knowledge does little more than describe the behavior of atoms. When it comes to what those atoms are and how these atoms came into existence you come face to face with the unknown.

From that position on balance I lean towards the creator God explanation. What is your leaning?
And yet you can't see that this is indeed what Pixy and 3point14 said you said: 'We don't know' = 'Goddidit'?
 
....

Please provide a rational explanation of what atoms are and how they came to exist?
You are in denial about your own position. Please provide a rational explanation for how "we don't know" results in or leads to "god did it"?
 
I'd argue that most atheists do start from a position of agnosticism. I'm certainly not saying I know no god exists. Rather I'm saying that I don't see evidence for any of them.

Fair enough.

I fully accept that there could be a god. However I see no reason to assume there is one (and certainly no reason to assume that if there is a god it's the christian one).

I could say the same thing about materialism: I fully accept that mind-independent matter/energy could exist, however I see no reason to assume it does exist.

I don't think that asking for evidence of something before assuming its existence is a "foundational belief". No belief is required.

Depends on the foundational belief. Logical and mathematical truths, and the knowledge that at least one mind exists are a priori true. All other beliefs require evidence. Unfortunately, this evidence is filtered through our senses, so these other beliefs all have the unevidenced foundational belief that our senses are accurately giving us information about how the world really is. There is no way to actually know how accurate our senses are.
 

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