• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

What was the worst genocide?

I don't know if I would class it the worst massacre but it is probably the least known, the Katyn Forest Massacre. For years Poles could not even speak about it and it wasn't until the fall of the Soviet Union that the truth about it began to come out.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ons/csi-studies/studies/winter99-00/art6.html

http://katyncrime.pl/The,Katyn,Massacre,517.html

I stronglly recommend this book on what went on in Eastern Europe between 1933 and 1945 :

http://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Eu...TF8&qid=1431630252&sr=8-1&keywords=bloodlands

He shows what should be obvious by now but which some people refuse to accept:That from any halfway rational moral/ethical viewpoint there is no real diffeence between Adolf and Uncle Joe.
 
Last edited:
I stronglly recommend this book on what went on in Eastern Europe between 1933 and 1945 :

http://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Eu...TF8&qid=1431630252&sr=8-1&keywords=bloodlands

He shows what should be obvious by now but which some people refuse to accept:That from any halfway rational moral/ethical viewpoint there is no real diffeence between Adolf and Uncle Joe.
The moral equivalence of these two individuals is one thing, and very probable too; but the behaviour of Stalin towards Poles and Hitler towards Jews are different things. Both crimes, but different kinds of crimes.
 
Craigb-a good book to show the horror of the eastern front is "the cruel hunter's" published by schiffer books. It is a military history of the infamous Waffen ss penal unit the diirlewanger brigade.
For the other side of the fence you should pick up "victims of Yalta" by Tolstoy(yes,he's related to the famous writer),bear in mind though that Tolstoy is biased. Nevertheless his research is pretty sound. Its a pretty horrible story no one,Britain and america included come of well. Actually that's not true,tiny little Lichtenstein stood up to Stalins army and saved thousands of men women and children.
 
Last edited:
I stronglly recommend this book on what went on in Eastern Europe between 1933 and 1945 :

http://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Eu...TF8&qid=1431630252&sr=8-1&keywords=bloodlands

He shows what should be obvious by now but which some people refuse to accept:That from any halfway rational moral/ethical viewpoint there is no real difference between Adolf and Uncle Joe.

Thanks, I have several books on Katyn, and Bloodlands looks interesting. The books I have read are:

http://www.amazon.com/Katyn-1940-Do...d_cp_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=08CFKPWZTFB73PQFYTMD

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786427566/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

He brags himself about killing nearly 24,000 peasants, including women, children and elderly. That is, explicitly not including those burned in their homes or killed on the spot by his soldiers, so that would be nearly 24,000 he ordered impaled, for being Turkish.

If that's not a genocide attempt, I don't know what is.

Mind you, not a very effective one, nor the biggest genocide. But he was doing what he could in a hurry, before the Turks could react and send their bigger army to stop him.​


I was wondering about that. I have read several secondary sources which have that quote from him. However, most of these secondary sources claim that he did it 'to his own people'. The implication was that these peasants were Slavic.

Vlad had a great deal of support, respect and even love from peasants. The love part I am inferring from a movie, but Hollywood doesn't lie :D So I was wondering how he could curry such support while torturing lots of innocent Slavic peasants.

You are the first person who suggested that most the people he killed were Turkish, not Slavic. He killed Turkish children, not Slavic children.

You make better sense than other accounts. I don't think a sadistic maniac can't get support by torturing everybody. However, it would be interesting to know what Vlad did to peace loving minorities in his country.


Vlad would have the moral advantage of waging a defensive war. At least, I thought he was waging a defensive war. I thought he severely punished people for the smallest infractions. He impaled Turkish soldiers, but clearly they were committing an infraction. He could have you impaled, maybe the most prolonged and painful executions, for almost anything. He could burn you for begging. However, I didn't think he was into ethnic cleansing.

He doesn't seem to be one of those conquerors who expanded into outside of Wallachovia (and Transylvania). However, maybe he did a bit of ethnic cleansing on the side.

If he really impaled Turkish children just because they were born Turkish, then I would have to classify this as the most horrible genocide in terms of torture and brutality. If he went into towns that had be dominated by Moslems for a long time, and impaled all the Moslems, then he was killing nonSlavic genes. It was genocide because the effect was selectively striking at the human gene pool.

If he was impaling people who weren't with the program, regardless of race, then I would say he was an overzealous peace maker ;) If he made Turks to leave his land, then he was clearly a bigot.​
 
Well, as usual, it's more complex. That account is what he writes about just one campaign into Bulgaria.

As a tangent, BTW, he actually writes a breakdown by province of how many killed, not just the total figure (which you may notice isn't rounded up or down), so if he's exaggerating it, he's doing a very credible job of it. It's essentially a cold-blooded spreadsheet (so to speak) of numbers of people killed, and it adds up. So it's also not very incredible that he'd not just do it, but also keep an OCD-kinda record of the mass murder.

And yes, supposedly in that campaign he impaled the Muslims and at least claimed to relocate the Christians. Which is why he was such a hero of Christianity for it. "Love thy neighbour" apparently only counts if thy neighbour is Christian, and the right shade of Christian at that ;)

Exactly how he separated them, that's anyone's guess. I mean, if someone asked you if you're a Christian or about to be gruesomely executed, dunno about you, but I'd take the first choice.

But to return to it, that's not the only instance he impaled people or where he's accused of killing people. Doing it to the Turks doesn't preclude also doing it to his own people too. The two don't really exclude each other.

That said, as a further correction, his own people were not Slavic. The Wallachians were a predominantly Latin population. The people in Bulgaria on the other hand, WERE predominantly a mix of Slavic and Turkish. So that campaign was predominantly aimed at people of another nationality than his own, one way or another.

The Slavic sources that glorify him are basically Russians, not his own subjects.

Also when he says peasants, he probably means it. Not only really he didn't have the time to siege stuff, but his raids in Transylvania also completely bypassed fortified stuff and killed unarmed peasants before anyone could react. So it kinda fits the pattern, IMHO. He probably did kill peasants, not some ruling class or even burghers.

To further complicate any analysis of his personality, is that the guy was IMHO about as stable as a mixer full of nitroglycerin.

He didn't just trick his Turkish liege. He sought protection from Matthias Corvinus of Hungary (which included the duchy of Transylvania), but raided his border lands. Vlad's cavalry helped put Stephen The Great of Moldavia on his throne, but Vlad's troops later gave Stephen the leg wound that would infect and eventually kill him. He may or may not have killed the elite guard that Stephen gave him to keep him alive in his second reign; it's not very clear, but it would be crazy enough to be credible for him.

You get the idea. It's kinda hard to guess what was going on in his head, because he was acting very unpredictably. Which, granted, served him well in warfare.
 
Last edited:
If you're a victim of it, it's the genocide that's happening to you.
Only if it's also happening to other people sharing the same ethnicity or culture. Otherwise you would be the victim, no less personally unfortunate, of another category of crime.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom