What to do with prostitutes

Well, it might change people's reaction to hearing "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you"...
 
I'm sure this has already been said but I feel very angry about the way prostitutes are either demonised or pitied by people simply because of the way they choose to make a living. Who are they hurting? No one. They're helping people by satisfying one of the most basic human needs. Who the f*** are you to tell them how to earn their way through life?


Greatest I am said:
Prostitutes. male or female, are products of abuse by our societies.
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Quotes like this are the kind of patronising bulls*** that pisses me off. These people don't need your help, they need you to leave them the hell alone.
 
Some wanted five careers less respectable that prostitution, here you go: Lawyer, politician, tabloid journalist, soldier and preacher.

Funnily enough I was writing up a whole list of a proffesions I deemed less respectable than prostitution a few weeks ago but unfortunately it got wiped.
 
I think you have to excavate an entire basement under those professions to fit televangelist in.
 
Loss Leader said:
On behalf of the lawyers: Hey!
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Not the awesome lawyers (Yourself included in said grouping). My family law attorney walks on water as far as I'm concerned. He can, however, tell lots of stories about the bad ones!

Adding to keep thread on topic: Now, you awesome lawyers need to help draft stuff to make prostitution legal.:pibiggrin:
 
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Miss Anthrope said:
Adding to keep thread on topic: Now, you awesome lawyers need to help draft stuff to make prostitution legal.
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Not sure into which category of lawyer I fall (I like to think I'm pretty awesome, though), but we'd have quite a few centuries of precedent working against us on that one. America isn't exactly known for legalizing things just because they're impossible to prohibit, don't really harm anyone, and everyone involved would be better off were they legal. See, e.g., marijuana.
 
JamesDillon said:
Not sure into which category of lawyer I fall (I like to think I'm pretty awesome, though), but we'd have quite a few centuries of precedent working against us on that one. America isn't exactly known for legalizing things just because they're impossible to prohibit, don't really harm anyone, and everyone involved would be better off were they legal. See, e.g., marijuana.
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I was actually just being funny. Edited the post to add the necessary smiley.
 
Miss Anthrope said:
I was actually just being funny. Edited the post to add the necessary smiley.
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Ah, yes. Humor. That's unfortunately part of the soul that is surgically removed upon law school graduation.

Loss Leader said:
That's not a legal problem, it's a political one. Lawyers don't make law. Politicians do and those guys are barely even human.
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(Psst-- just don't tell them how many politicians have law degrees!)
 
Loss Leader said:
That's not a legal problem, it's a political one. Lawyers don't make law. Politicians do and those guys are barely even human.
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I thought most politicians WERE lawyers;) .

Loss, I'm sure you've heard all of 'em. But just in case...

When the Devil wanted to set up Hell next to Heaven, God agreed to give him the land if he built and maintained a barrier between the two. Eons later, the barrier is fallen down in spots and demons occasionally sneak across and pinch the angels' bottoms. God's pissed and complains to the Devil if he doesn't uphold his end of the bargain and fix the fence, He's going to sue.

"And where are You going to get a lawyer?" the Devil asked.:)
 
Circular argument. You are trying to show that prostitution is not a respectable profession, because if a celebrity were married to a prostitute we'd know, because prostitution is not a respectable profession.
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Jon, I was presenting the demonstrable fact that celebritries don't marry prostititutes as evidence that prostitution is not respectable.

I'm not sure how that's circular.

It's not crucial to my argument though. There's loads of other evidence that prostitution is not respectable as a profession, and that prostitutes individually are not respected.

The most obvious evidence is the criminalization of the women.

90% of prostitutes globally are career criminals, like burglars, drug dealers, and fraudsters - ie the method by which they earn their living is illegal.

So my main premise is that "career criminals are not respected by society".

If anyone wants to challenge that, fair enough, but in the meantime the syllogism runs :

1. Career criminals are not respected by society
2. Most prostitutes are career criminals.
3. Therefore, those prostitutes are not respected by society.


I know some of you want to object that if prostitution were not illegal, it wouldn't be despised, which is possibly true. My point is that that is another world, maybe a century or more in the future...

Whereas in the real world, right here right now, my syllogism holds.

Unless someone points to the error in my logic, of course.

Jon, I admit my argument did go circular at one point. I said :

Which begs the question: why was it criminalized in the first place, and why, given its reputation as 'the world's oldest profession', has it never become a legitimate profession ?



Easy.

Because it's not respectable.
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Let me try again .

Prostitution is an exchange between a buyer and a seller. In most of the societies in which prostitution is illegal, it is the seller alone who is criminalized. Why ?

(Could it have anything to do with the gender of the law-makers ?)

The same thinking applies to health checks. Sexually transmitted diseases travel both ways. The prostitute may infect the john, or vice-versa. So why is it that only the prostitutes have to have the tests ? Testing the johns wouldn't be that difficult, and would pay for itself by diagnosing male carriers at an early stage of disease.

For example (from wiki)

The Netherlands and Germany emphasise the public health aspect in their legislation by rigidly enforcing the periodic medical examination of prostitutes and by providing free compulsory hospitalisation for those found infected.
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Get that ? "Compulsory hospitalisation for those found infected." But only for the women. Ignore the men who infected them. Why ?

I don't know.

I suggest the answers lie in pre-history, in biology, in gender roles and in the dominance of patriarchies. And elsewhere, no doubt.






Gnu.



PS

These people don't need your help, they need you to leave them the hell alone.
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Some do, Worm, most don't. I've read recently that 65-70% of all prostitutes would like to get out of the profession.

And most of them are denied help in so doing because their activities are illegal, so if they ask the authorities for help, they are likely to be arrested.




Who are they hurting? No one.
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It's far more likely that they're the ones being hurt. Where prostitution is illegal, the prostitutes are being exploited by the men that use them.


PS 2 - Todd - re your Tom Sizemore and Heidi Fleiss example (ignoring the fact that she wasn't a working prostitute at the time) - wiki says :

Sizemore, who had long battled drug addiction, was convicted in 2003 of assault and battery against his girlfriend, the former "Hollywood Madam" Heidi Fleiss.[2] Sizemore was then sentenced to 17 months in jail
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So, engagement notwithstanding, it became an abusive relationship, right ?


I suggest this supports my position. I'm guessing that Sizemore felt more justified in being violent towards Fleiss because she was an (ex)prostitute - exactly the same mind-set that fuels the physical and sexual violence perpretated against prostitutes generally.

I don't the details of the case though...

Either way Todd, it's not really a good example of a prostititute transcending her background, is it ?
 
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Gnu Ordure said:
I know some of you want to object that if prostitution were not illegal, it wouldn't be despised, which is possibly true. My point is that that is another world, maybe a century or more in the future...

Whereas in the real world, right here right now, my syllogism holds.
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Well, except that you're overgeneralizing. You use the word "prostitutes" when you mean "illegal prostitutes" specifically. If you were to use the term "illegal prostitutes" in all your posts, to make it clear exactly to whom you were referring, I think there would be much less confusion, and possibly less disagreement.

Prostitution is an exchange between a buyer and a seller. In most of the societies in which prostitution is illegal, it is the seller alone who is criminalized. Why ?
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Er, I don't think that's the case, at least in the US. Johns are busted alongside hookers; there are even undercover operations to catch them. But if there is less effort devoted to catching johns, I think it's the same logic used to justify going after drug dealers more than buyers -- attack the supply, not the demand.

The same thinking applies to health checks. Sexually transmitted diseases travel both ways. The prostitute may infect the john, or vice-versa. So why is it that only the prostitutes have to have the tests? Testing the johns wouldn't be that difficult, and would pay for itself by diagnosing male carriers at an early stage of disease.
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In the legal brothels in Nevada, clients are checked visually for symptoms of disease before any of the fun stuff starts. They don't do a blood test, but that would be prohibitively invasive, and require lab equipment (and staff to operate it) at every location. It just wouldn't be practical.

Plus I don't see any compelling need. With mandatory latex condom use, STD rates among legal prostitutes are far below rates in the general population, and there's never been a single case of HIV among legal Nevada prostitutes, unless it's happened very recently.

Put simply, the current system works and it's practical. Additional measures are unnecessary and would hurt business.

Get that ? "Compulsory hospitalisation for those found infected." But only for the women. Ignore the men who infected them. Why ?
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Probably because they have no idea who they are? A whorehouse that wasn't discreet wouldn't stay in business long.

Some do, Worm, most don't. I've read recently that 65-70% of all prostitutes would like to get out of the profession.
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Illegal prostitutes, you mean. Legal prostitutes can get out of the business just by walking out the door.

I suggest this supports my position. I'm guessing that Sizemore felt more justified in being violent towards Fleiss because she was an (ex)prostitute
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Dude, it's Tom Sizemore, don't overanalyze. I'm guessing he felt more justified in being violent because he was on freaking crystal meth.
 
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Gnu Ordure said:
Some do, Worm, most don't. I've read recently that 65-70% of all prostitutes would like to get out of the profession.
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As opposed to, say, that big fraction of McDonald's workers who want to stay working for the golden arches?

I don't even think you could find 30-35% of McDonald's MANAGERS who would not "like to get out of their profession."
 
You use the word "prostitutes" when you mean "illegal prostitutes" specifically
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I am trying not to be ambiguous, Todd. But sometimes there's no need to specify. If I say "65-70% of all prostitutes would like to get out of the profession', it doesn't matter too much if I really meant 65-70% of 90% of all prostitutes, does it ? (well, it matters 10%, which is quite a lot, but not enough to affect the gist of what I'm trying to say)



Before, you said :

Some porn stars (who are arguably a form of prostitute) have definitely become celebrities,
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Well, I'll argue with that (in order to support my case that prostitution is not a respectable profession).

Porn-stars are not prostitutes.

(Unless your defintion of 'prostitute' is 'some-one who has sex for money').

A porn-star has sex for money, yes. But there are two conditions that differentiate what they do from prostitution.

First, they are not being paid by the person they're having sex with. They're both being paid by a third party. The relationship between the participants is therefore equal - there is no ulterior transaction, and it cannot be exploitative.

Second, the purpose of the sex, unlike in prostitution, is not the sexual satisfaction of the participants (or the producer who pays them), but the production of a film.

As long as these conditions are met, porn-stars are respectable members of society. They can be publicly proud of what they do, they can have their annual award ceremonies, they can enjoy their celebrity and get rich, they can appear on album covers or cross over into straight acting...

(Hence, porn-stars can do what legal prostitutes can't. They can have sex without a condom if they want to, just like you and me).


Illegal prostitutes can't do any of that.

And as far as I know, legal prostitutes don't either. Happy to be corrected there: in places where prostitution is legal, do individual prostitutes become celebrities ? Are the 'best' prostitutes recognized as such, and publicly celebrated ? Please tell me, Kiwis, Aussies and Nevadans (or Nevadians ? sorry I don't know) I'm curious.



Gnu.
 
A lot of what I would have said has been said already in this thread, but I would like to ask for evidence for this statement:

Gnu Ordure said:
90% of prostitutes globally are career criminals, like burglars, drug dealers, and fraudsters - ie the method by which they earn their living is illegal.
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In many parts of the world, prostitution is legal and regulated. Even in Canada, prostitution is not illegal (communicating in a public place for the purpose of prostitution is illegal, but sex for money is legal). In most of Europe, there are legal red-light districts and brothels. I don't know about much of South America, Asia or Africa, but Australia has legalized prostitution (may vary from state to state). I very much doubt that your 90% figure is accurate.
 
Don't forget New Zealand has legalised prostitution as well. There's a few other places around the world where it is also legal (mentioned earlier in this thread).

Cheers,
TGHO
 
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