What to do with prostitutes

[Hokulele]

I was unaware of that Hokulele; after a quick google, I'm afraid I'm still unaware of it.

Assuming you're referring to his first wife, Josephine, her wiki article does not describe her as a prostitute, and there's no indication that she was particularly wealthy.

As for Napoleon needing a rich wife to fund his ambitions... at the time they met in December 1795, he had been a professional soldier for ten years, and had attained the rank of Brigadier-General, just about to be given command of the French army which invaded Italy in March 1796, days after his wedding to Josephine.

So I reckon he was doing pretty well without her.

And I found no evidence that this invasion of Italy was funded by Josephine's money.

Yes, Wiki is such a complete source.

Try this PBS site (the show is where I first learned about her history), and then read the links, articles, and translations of letters.

 

[Jon.]

Let's apply your own test. Name a famous person in contemporary society married to each of a taxi driver, an accountant, a doctor, a factory worker and a hotel clerk.

I could do that, jon.

Off the top of my head, Neil Young is married to a nurse, Bob Dylan's wife was a teacher, Billy Connolly's wife is a therapist (or Pamela Stevenson's husband is a comedian, as you wish)... I'm sure I could find other equally mundane examples... so what's your point, exactly ?

I'd like to see your cite for Bob Dylan and Neil Young's wives. Young's first wife was a film actress; I have not been able to find a profession for his second wife Pegi except that she was trained as a singer. Dylan's first wife was a Playboy bunny and fashion model; his second wife was one of his backup singers.

Besides, I didn't ask about nurse or teacher or therapist. I asked for the five professions you said were less respectable than prostitution. Your inability to name famous people with spouses in these professions shows that there is not necessarily a link between the respectability of a particular profession and the likelihood of a famous person marrying someone in that profession.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

Yes, Wiki is such a complete source.

I know that, Hokulele, but it's good place to start.

I read the first two pages of your link, there's no reference to Josephine being a prostitute. She had an arranged marriage when she was 16, but that doesn't make her a prostitute.

After the death of her husband in the Revolution, she became at various times the mistress of various people - but a mistress is not a prostitute (especially in France, where the role is more formalized and accepted than in most societies).

And in spite of your program's assertion that Napoleon needed a rich wife (why? he was already one of the most senior figures in the Army), it fails to explain why he then married a poor one.

According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica (my bolding) :

Married in a civil ceremony on March 9, 1796, Joséphine was an indifferent wife, declining to answer the future emperor's passionate love letters and, while he was campaigning in Egypt in 1798–99, flirting with another army officer in a most compromising manner. Bonaparte threatened to divorce her, but her children dissuaded him, and he eventually forgave her, even agreeing to pay the enormous debts she had accumulated

Furtrhermore, Britannica's article on Josephine at no point refers to her as a prostitute.

May I suggest, Hokulele, that you find a less contentious example ?

I'd like to see your cite for Bob Dylan and Neil Young's wives.

luckily, Jon, I was speaking 'off the top of my head', which as a lawyer you must know is code for 'guessing' (or at least, 'having a vague memory of').

I did spend 10 minutes trying to google 'celebrities partners profession', but couldn't find a list...

My point remains. Prostitution is not a respectable profession. If any celebrity was married to a prostitute, it would be big news, and we'd know about it.

Besides, I didn't ask about nurse or teacher or therapist. I asked for the five professions you said were less respectable than prostitution.

er.. what ? less respectable ?

I said :

Prostitution does not, on the whole, globally speaking, have the same legitimacy as accountancy, taxi-driving, medecine, manufacturing or tourism etc ...

Your inability to name famous people with spouses in these professions shows that there is not necessarily a link between the respectability of a particular profession and the likelihood of a famous person marrying someone in that profession.

I can't name an author married to an accountant because I'm not very good at googling; and a name doesn't spring to mind because it's not a very interesting fact anyway.

My request remains : name me a respected member of contemporary society who is married to a working prostitute.



Prostitution is not a respectable profession (personal qualities of individual prostitutes notwithstanding).

Prostitutes don't open shopping-malls; they don't advertise coffee; they don't get awarded MBE's for services to society; they don't appear on Big Brother - they don't become celebrities (how marginalized is that ?) ...

... when men register at a Dating Agency, and they are asked for their preferences in terms of their prospective partner's profession: none of them write : 'prostitute'.

Why is that ?

(Want a citation for that, Jon ? You got me, it was another wild guess.)





Some of you have accused me of living in a Disney movie, because I made certain statements about the nature of love, as I understand it.

(Which is not a problem, I assure you. I fully understand that anyone pontificating in a public forum about the nature of true love deserves everything he gets. If it wasn't me doing the pontificating, I'd be joining in with you guys, believe me).

I say some of you are in your own movie; you're living in Pretty Woman territory; prostitution at the top-end, risk-free and beautifully-lit; beautiful people transcending the commerce to develop a real relationship and a happy ending...



... like Todd planning his trip to Vegas:

I have absolutely no problem with the idea of paying for sex. I haven't had reason to do it yet, but sure, under the right circumstances I would consider it. My wife has told me that she wants to take me out to a brothel in Nevada as a present sometime, and you know what? I'd let her!

Can I give you some advice, Todd ?

Don't do that.

Or at least, don't do it until you've fully examined your motivation for so doing; and your wife's. And until you've imagined and examined the possible consequences of whatever might occur.


I don't know your exact circumstances, Todd, so these points may or may not apply...

1. Your wife, in spite of what she says, may be inconsolably distressed by the thought of you being in bed with someone half her age; offering something (youth) that she can no longer offer.

2. She may be distressed by the idea that you did things with the prostitute that you never did with her (and she won't know exactly what you did anyway - another cause of concern).

3. If you having sex with a prostitute transgresses your wedding vows (if it constitutes adultery, which you have never previously committed), are you both going to be comfortable with that ?

4. And what if you like it so much, Todd, that you want to do it again ? Then what ? Your wife can't object: she gave it to you as a present once, why not give it to you again ? Next Friday, perhaps, with one of your local prostitutes ? Why not ?

Unsolicited advice, I know.

But I still think the concerns I've raised (and it's not a complete list) are valid, and if you value your marriage, I'd seriously advise you to consider them before you jeopardize it.







Or ignore me.

As you wish.




Gnu.

 

[slingblade]

I 1. Your wife, in spite of what she says, may be distressed by the thought of you being in bed with someone half her age; offering something (youth) that she can no longer offer.

Or she may be mature enough to know that sex isn't love, and generous enough to offer her husband a gift. Women like that...we do exist.

2. She may be distressed by the idea that you did things with the prostitute that you don't do with her (and she won't know exactly what you did anyway - another cause of concern).

If you had ever been to a legal house, you would know that money can buy you anything. They do couples, you know. They let your spouse watch, if you want it. The customers aren't solely men.

3. If you having sex with a prostitute transgresses your wedding vows (if it constitutes adultery, which you have never previously committed), are you both going to be comfortable with that ?

I'm assuming they've both thought of that.

My husband and I feel that if you have your partner's consent, it isn't cheating. It isn't adultery. My husband has had a "pink ticket" for years. And having lived with a truly adulterous spouse, I can tell you that this way doesn't hurt. It's the lying, sneaking, and making a total fool of you that hurts.

Besides, he's never really used it. He says knowing he can makes it uninteresting. I'm not stupid.

4. And what if you like it so much, Todd, that you want to do it again ? Then what ? Your wife can't object: she gave it to you as a present once, why not give it to you again ? Next Friday, perhaps, with one of your local prostitutes ? Why not ?

Todd would have to be a fairly wealthy man to afford that, trust me.
Besides, I assume his wife has a mouth and a brain and can use both. I assume he has a brain, too.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Exactly.

The reciprocity and mutuality evaporate. You're no longer two lovers (or friends, or stangers), both doing something because you dig it and because you dig each other.

You're a prostitute and a john. The woman's desire and preferences become irrelevant; the encounter focuses on the man's satisfaction, not hers. Who cares whether she comes or not ?

(Does a john, having had his orgasm, considerately enquire of the prostitute whether she has come herself, and if she hasn't, perhaps he could help her to do so ? No, he doesn't, and she'd laugh at him if he did).

It's not that kind of relationship any more.



as tgho said :



Agreed, tgho. And the purpose of paid-for-sex is not mutual pleasure.

Money has killed the mutuality stone dead - the concept of reciprocal enjoyment no longer applies.

The sexual attraction is only flowing one way (usually).

Which is why the experience of commercial sex is very different to that of freely-given sex.

Not worse - just different.

Gnu.

It's quite possible for a prostitute to have an orgasm during sex with a client. It's quite possible for a prostitute to enjoy sex with a client. It's quite possible for one of the partners not to orgasm during a one-night stand. It's quite possible to enjoy a sexual encounter without anyone orgasming.

I can see the angle you're getting at now (please correct me if I am wrong) - you're trying to say that since the prostitute has been paid, he/she has no right to say no to the client. She/he has to basically service the client regardless. Well, this is generally not the case. Prostitutes can still say no. They can reject clients they do not want to deal with, they can refuse to perform certain sexual acts, and they can how and when to terminate the interaction. They can even decide to enjoy the procedure, if they want.

Furthermore, from what little I have read of the writings of prostitutes, a large number of clients don't just "use" prostitutes for sex, but also for conversation and physical closeness with another human being. Grab any book written by a prostitute or ex-prostitute, and the anecdotes they tell usually include clients who are simply lonely. The sex occurs, sure, but conversations occur too.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Gnu Ordure]

Or she may be mature enough to know that sex isn't love, and generous enough to offer her husband a gift.

quite possibly, slingblade... but that doesn't alter the the possibility that Mrs Todd might still be distressed by what has happened ... whether she watches it, or imagines it. So it's possibly worth raising the question in advance.

If you had ever been to a legal house, you would know that money can buy you anything.

That is not true. In Nevada, a man has to use a condom for oral sex and intercourse. That's the law. If money buys you condom-free sex in a legal house, the system's corrupt.

And for the majority of prostitutes, you cannot even buy a kiss. You can stick anything anywhere else, but you can't put your lips on hers.

I'm assuming they've both thought of that.

And I was thinking they might not have done.

Todd would have to be a fairly wealthy man to afford that, trust me.

And maybe he is a wealthy man...

Besides, I assume his wife has a mouth and a brain and can use both. I assume he has a brain, too.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't, I don't know.

I'm only asking.


As I said, feel free to ignore me.


.

 

[Wheezebucket]

That is not true. In Nevada, a man has to use a condom for oral sex and intercourse. That's the law. If money buys you condom-free sex in a legal house, the system's corrupt.

And for the majority of prostitutes, you cannot even buy a kiss. You can stick anything anywhere else, but you can't put your lips on hers.

You finally got *one* thing right - you do need to wear a condom for oral sex in the legalized states - and for good reason. However, you've been watching a wee bit too much Pretty Woman, as kissing is not only allowed, but the norm. Another example of your ignorance.

Again - this is not a Disney movie, nor is this an episode of 7th Heaven. In the real world, adults can be mature about their sex lives. Couples can, in fact, discuss these things and come to the conlcusion that it'd be a fun thing to participate in. Open, healthy relationships exist. Women are not just brainless, victimized little sex tools, as you seem to think (even in relationships you don't give them any credit). Some of us like to treat women with respect unlike, apparently, you.

Let me know when you've caught up to 2007.

 

[toddjh]

IMy point remains. Prostitution is not a respectable profession. If any celebrity was married to a prostitute, it would be big news, and we'd know about it.

Tom Sizemore was engaged to Heidi Fleiss. They weren't actually married, but hey, it's close.

they don't become celebrities (how marginalized is that ?)

Some porn stars (who are arguably a form of prostitute) have definitely become celebrities, if minor ones. And Heidi Fleiss was a bit of a celebrity herself, back in the day.

Can I give you some advice, Todd ?

Don't do that.

Thanks, but I'm happy to say we've already talked about and dealt with most of the issues you bring up. This isn't exactly our first foray into "extracurricular activities," just the first time we plan on going to a professional. And, like slingblade said (thanks for leaping to my defense! ), my wife might even be in the room, or in a room of her own. It all depends on our moods when we get there, and how many drinks we have at the bar.

We've had an open relationship since we first started going out, which has been a very good thing for us. I think strict monogamy is an unrealistic standard to expect of anyone (and the statistics agree with me), but even more so for us. We started dating at a very young age and we were each the first real partner for the other. If we'd tried to be strictly monogamous, then I think one or both of us would've become very bitter at missed experiences or would've ended up cheating with all the hurt feelings and destruction of trust that go along with it. By talking it through we managed to find a middle ground where we could all be happy and comfortable with everything.

4. And what if you like it so much, Todd, that you want to do it again ? Then what ? Your wife can't object: she gave it to you as a present once, why not give it to you again ? Next Friday, perhaps, with one of your local prostitutes ? Why not ?

Well, obviously you haven't seen my local prostitutes or you wouldn't have said that last part.

But who knows. It might become an occasional thing (it couldn't be more than occasional or else I'd go bankrupt!). Or it might not. Depends how it works out. My wife wouldn't mind, apart from the amount of money we'd be throwing away.

But I still think the concerns I've raised (and it's not a complete list) are valid, and if you value your marriage, I'd seriously advise you to consider them before you jeopardize it.

I appreciate it, but if I can give a brief counter-rant of my own on the same general topic, I think there are just as many pitfalls in trying to maintain a "normal" marriage as there are in having an unusual sex life. People who don't know how much time and effort my wife and I have put into communication and reassurance often give me warnings like yours about the potential problems, but rarely do I see anyone giving people in a traditional marriage an itemized list of things that could go wrong there.

And this isn't just free love hippie-talk either, although the rest of what I've said might give that impression. The last I heard, infidelity was the number one reason for divorce and, in America at least, about half of married women and upwards of two thirds of married men end up cheating at one time or another. Infidelity is the norm, not an aberration, and I think anybody who enters into marriage without having talked about that reality at length and worked through any issues they have, just like you're advising my wife and me to do, is setting themselves up for a huge fall. In my opinion, traditional marriage is even more dangerous, because there's a huge amount of social pressure to conform, which gives people the idea that it's supposed to be easy and might even force people into a type of relationship they're just not able to handle.

 

[Z]

It's nice to see there are more of us in the world... Todd and Sling.

I enjoy being the observer, for that matter - it only makes me love my wife more.

 

[Hokulele]

toddjh, consider your post pseudo-nominated for The Language Award.

("Pseudo-nominated" as I am not sure if you would appreciate your thoughts being circulated outside this thread.)

 

[Gnu Ordure]

I can see the angle you're getting at now (please correct me if I am wrong) - you're trying to say that since the prostitute has been paid, he/she has no right to say no to the client

er, you're wrong, tgho, I'm not trying to say that - where did you get that from ?

Prostitutes offer a different range of services. Hopefully they are in charge of the range they offer. In which case they're free to say no to the client at any point.

So I don't quite get your point...

 

[The Great Hairy One]

er, you're wrong, tgho, I'm not trying to say that - where did you get that from ?

Prostitutes offer a different range of services. Hopefully they are in charge of the range they offer. In which case they're free to say no to the client at any point.

So I don't quite get your point...

I was inferring from your comments, reading between the lines. Obviously, I was incorrect. You're saying that the exchange of money removes the mutuality out of the equation, I am not sure it does. *shrug* Neither of us can really provide evidence here, we're just arguing opinion at this point.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Gnu Ordure]

Todd,

Thanks for that honest reply; I see that you are aware of the risks and you and your wife have addressed the issues.

So good luck to you.

The issues are still worth raising, I hope, because lots of couples do drift into extra-marital sex of one kind or another without considering the consequences. And some marriages do break up as a result of the thoughtlessness.

And I'm relieved you weren't offended by me offering the unnecessary advice.


Gnu.

 

[Wheezebucket]

The issues are still worth raising, I hope, because lots of couples do drift into extra-marital sex of one kind or another without considering the consequences. And some marriages do break up as a result of the thoughtlessness.

And this is in no way an argument against prostitution, or couples going to see prostitutes. It's about that couple and their relationship and where they stand personally on the subject and how they communicate to eachother.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Todd et al, you guys are definitely not alone.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Or she may be mature enough to know that sex isn't love, and generous enough to offer her husband a gift. Women like that...we do exist.

We do indeedie.

My husband and I feel that if you have your partner's consent, it isn't cheating. It isn't adultery. My husband has had a "pink ticket" for years. And having lived with a truly adulterous spouse, I can tell you that this way doesn't hurt. It's the lying, sneaking, and making a total fool of you that hurts.

Besides, he's never really used it. He says knowing he can makes it uninteresting. I'm not stupid.

No ma'am, you're not. I've been in the same boat on both fronts. Lying, sneaking, and emotional abandonment are the true issues of betrayal. Sex can be both incredibly loving and it can be pure recreation. Some are able to experience and make the distinction.

I'm glad I'm catching up on where this thread has gone. Thanks for your candor, folks. I'm enjoying a loving, supportive, amazing partnership that is monogamy optional. We're still madly in love with each other, randy like bunnies, and amazingly connected after nearly a decade.

 

[Gnu Ordure]

Wheezebucket, why are you the only one giving me abuse on this ?

And accusing me of all kinds of attitudes that I don't have ?

This is an interesting discussion primarily, at the moment, between Todd in Illinois, tgho in Australia and me in London, and given the very personal nature of the subject and the scope for cultural misunderstandings, I think we're doing very well so far.

Todd did not feel that I insulting his wife in what I said, and I wasn't. I was concerned about his proposal and I offered advice in good faith; Todd seems to have understood that and said thank you, even though my concerns turned out to be unwarranted.



Wheezebucket, you accused me before of seeing prostitutes as sub-human; I asked you where you got that from and you ignored my question.

Now you say:

Women are not just brainless, victimized little sex tools, as you seem to think

Where have I said that women are that ?

Where are you getting these ideas about me from ? (Are you stll mixing me up with GIA ? that would explain it).




I still contend, however, that the vast majority of prostitutes world-wide are victimized - the fact they this could be ameliorated by legalization is irrelevant - Prostitution is illegal (mostly), and the women are victimized.

Some of us like to treat women with respect unlike, apparently, you.

Well, that's ironic, given that one of my first points was that most prostitutes (globally) are treated with contempt, first by the societies/governments which create the laws that criminalize them, secondly by the individuals who use prostitutes and who therefore collude in the laws being broken, at little risk to themselves...

... because (wild-guess alert) in most countries, buying sex is not illegal, selling it is, so it's usually the women that get arrested and imprisoned if they can't bribe their way out of it.


And you accuse me of not respecting women myself when I try to raise these points ?

I don't think so.


Gnu.

 

[Lonewulf]

I still contend, however, that the vast majority of prostitutes world-wide are victimized - the fact they this could be ameliorated by legalization is irrelevant - Prostitution is illegal (mostly), and the women are victimized.

And I'd fight to make it legal.

 

[Jon.]

luckily, Jon, I was speaking 'off the top of my head', which as a lawyer you must know is code for 'guessing' (or at least, 'having a vague memory of').

I did spend 10 minutes trying to google 'celebrities partners profession', but couldn't find a list...

My point remains. Prostitution is not a respectable profession. If any celebrity was married to a prostitute, it would be big news, and we'd know about it.

Circular argument. You are trying to show that prostitution is not a respectable profession, because if a celebrity were married to a prostitute we'd know, because prostitution is not a respectable profession.

er.. what ? less respectable ?

Sorry. Fumble-fingers. Meant to say "more".

I can't name an author married to an accountant because I'm not very good at googling; and a name doesn't spring to mind because it's not a very interesting fact anyway.

My request remains : name me a respected member of contemporary society who is married to a working prostitute.

And my point remains: so what?

Prostitution is not a respectable profession (personal qualities of individual prostitutes notwithstanding).

Prostitutes don't open shopping-malls; they don't advertise coffee; they don't get awarded MBE's for services to society; they don't appear on Big Brother - they don't become celebrities (how marginalized is that ?) ...

... when men register at a Dating Agency, and they are asked for their preferences in terms of their prospective partner's profession: none of them write : 'prostitute'.

Why is that ?

(Want a citation for that, Jon ? You got me, it was another wild guess.)

I was not even aware that dating agencies ask men their preferences in terms of their prospective partners' profession. It would seem to me to narrow options unreasonably.

 

[Lensman]

For those who want to abolish prostitution completely (not me), I think the best option would be to first legalise it & then nationalise it - nationalised businesses always fail eventually.