What To Do About Iran?

[boloboffin]

Gasp! A Real Issue!

Obama and McCain have been sparring recently over what to do about Iran. One of my favorite writers, Thomas P.M. Barnett, the author of The Pentagon's New Map and a Democrat, weighs in:

No talks between us and Iran prevent the reach for the bomb. On that McCain is correct.

Iran's decision based on our choices to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. Nothing we do now will scratch the nuke itch.

Now we live with the consequences of our choices, including the military tie-down that rules out regime change in Iran with military force.

All that is basically decided, along with our inability to stop Iran's reach, thanks also to Tehran's none-too-surprising support (or lack of serious resistance) from Russia, China and India.

We can deal with that emerging reality or we can finger-point over the past.

The question is, Who do you want to deal with this emerging strategic reality? The cool negotiator or the anger-management guy?

Barnett might drive you crazy because he doesn't care if Iran gets the bomb. Scratch that. He assumes that Iran will get the bomb and doesn't assume it will be the end of Western Civilization. It is an "emerging strategic reality."

Anyway, I thought that might prove a good starting point for this calm and rational discussion of the issue.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Over the pond, it does seem strange for McCain to act like having no talks is a sign of strength.

What has shown the recent (Quite remarkable) progress in Northern Ireland has been mature talks between two people who clearly hate each others guts.

Importantly, the maturity shown sends a clear message to the citizens of either countries (Be it Iran and the US) that leaders put aside their dislike for one another or disaproval of each others ideologies for the greater good. An Iranian society that sees the US president put aside differences for common comprimise will do wonders for the US's image and prevent someone like Mahmoud ImonaJihad from coming back into power again.

When Bush and McCain refuse to do this, they come across as simply not caring in the least about the issues that affect the electorate of the world, wearing their pride above what is important.

Refusing to speak to these leaders gives a seriousness to ideas that are quite silly.

 

[boloboffin]

The mullahs have been doing everything they can to undermine Ahmadinejad. A president willing to stand down and engage them in negotiations could only help that process along.

 

[Darth Rotor]

What To Do About Iran?

Invite them over for lunch: ham and swiss on pumpernickel, shrimp salad, and a nice white whine.

 

[boloboffin]

That sounds like a plan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/30/AR2008053002567_pf.html

But on a recent two-week trip to Iran, I found the shift in sentiment palpable. This year, restaurants were booked solid for Valentine's Day months in advance. Heart-shaped chocolates and flower arrangements sold briskly enough to annoy the authorities, who reportedly began confiscating them on the street. American-style fast-food chains such as Super Star, seemingly modeled after the West Coast burger franchise Carl's Jr., are drawing crowds again. Walking through my old neighborhood, I discovered people lining up at a grill joint called Chili's, bearing the same jalapeño logo as the U.S. chain. (The Iranian government shuns international trademark laws).

I used to hear similarly pro-American sentiments frequently back in 2001, when Iranians' romance with the United States was at its most ardent. A poll conducted that same year found that 74 percent of Iranians supported restoring ties with the United States (whereupon the pollster was tossed into prison). You couldn't attend a dinner party without hearing someone, envious of the recently liberated Afghans, ask, "When will the Americans come save us?"

The most interesting aspect of the revival of such warm feelings today is that the United States has done so little to earn them. Instead, Iranians' renewed pro-American sentiments reflect the depth of their alienation from their own rulers. As a family friend put it: "It's a matter of being drawn to the opposite of what you can't stand."

I lived in Iran until last summer and experienced all the reasons why Ahmadinejad has replaced the United States as Iranians' top object of vexation. Under his leadership, inflation has spiked at least 20 percent, according to nongovernment analysts -- thanks to Ahmadinejad's expansionary fiscal policies, which inject vast amounts of cash into the economy. My old babysitter, for example, says she can no longer afford to feed her family red meat once a week. When I recently picked up some groceries -- a sack of potatoes, some green plums, two cantaloupes and a few tomatoes -- the bill came to the equivalent of $40.

 

[Brainster]

Barnett might drive you crazy because he doesn't care if Iran gets the bomb. Scratch that. He assumes that Iran will get the bomb and doesn't assume it will be the end of Western Civilization.

He's right. The question is whether it will be the end of Israeli civilization.

 

[Darth Rotor]

He's right. The question is whether it will be the end of Israeli civilization.

Is a sixty year old civilization somehow more special than any other?

What impact will its loss have on the world?

Example: the Mayan Civilization, the Inca Civilization, and the Aztec Civilization all perished and the world seems to be doing fine.

DR

 

[boloboffin]

He's right. The question is whether it will be the end of Israeli civilization.

Is Israel in as bad straits as the Soviet Union?

 

[corplinx]

After that nice analysis he ended with:

The question is, Who do you want to deal with this emerging strategic reality? The cool negotiator or the anger-management guy?

One is completely without evidence and the latter being a anti-mccain meme. McCain has worked with people with factional negotiations for years in the senate and has made bridges between vastly different points of view. His "blowups" behind the scenes in the senate were with people he was familiar with. The idea that somehow he will get up and start dropping f-bombs during an international treaty agreement is just democrat scare-mongering.

I think we can safely conclude based on McCain's past that his ability to be patient when working with hostile opponents isn't in doubt. First-in, first out.

 

[senorpogo]

Is a sixty year old civilization somehow more special than any other?

It is if you're an Israeli.

 

[BeAChooser]

McCain has worked with people with factional negotiations for years in the senate and has made bridges between vastly different points of view.

That's right. McCain has a long record of effectively working with both sides and finding compromise. Obama's record shows anything but that.

 

[Brainster]

Is a sixty year old civilization somehow more special than any other?

What impact will its loss have on the world?

Example: the Mayan Civilization, the Inca Civilization, and the Aztec Civilization all perished and the world seems to be doing fine.

Hey, you're right! And we're doing fine without the six million Jews who died in the Holocaust as well.

Somehow I don't think this will focus group well in Florida senior centers, however.

 

[corplinx]

That's right. McCain has a long record of effectively working with both sides and finding compromise. Obama's record shows anything but that.

Obama wasn't a bitter partisan in his short senate career. His record doesn't show him as being an avid aisle strider compromiser, but it doesn't show the opposite either.

 

[T.A.M.]

I thought McCain already weighed in on the Iran issue...

"bomb bomb bomb...."

TAM

 

[Darth Rotor]

It is if you're an Israeli.

For the set of people that is "everyone who is not an Isreali" my question remains. I appreciate how important Israel is to Israelis. That you need to have that explained is not a happy thought.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Hey, you're right! And we're doing fine without the six million Jews who died in the Holocaust as well.

Way to go, you dove into the gutter with the least provocation.

Tell me, what loss to civilization was the five million dead in the Congo over the past few years, a butcher's bill similar in order of magnitude to what I am asking about?

How are such distinctions made, that a similar loss in a different locale is somehow more of a loss?

DR

 

[D'rok]

How are such distinctions made, that a similar loss in a different locale is somehow more of a loss?

DR

Skin colour, generally. Or religion. Or both. Or geo-politics. Or all of the above.

Ugh.

 

[senorpogo]

Maybe we could just give the Tutsi the West Bank?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Maybe we could just give the Tutsi the West Bank?

Why do you hate the Hutus? They'd like to have a bank as well, ya know.

Hey Brainster, you brought it up, and you still haven't responded to the rational question I had to your post.

All you gave me was emotional BS.

The question is whether it will be the end of Israeli civilization.

Care to answer with something other than a Godwin, my question in response to your concern?

Is a sixty year old civilization somehow more special than any other?

What impact will its loss have on the world?

Example: the Mayan Civilization, the Inca Civilization, and the Aztec Civilization all perished and the world seems to be doing fine.

To put a finer point on it, what is so special about Israeli civilization that anyone outside of Israel should be concerned?

Use your own words, if you please.

DR

 

[senorpogo]

To put a finer point on it, what is so special about Israeli civilization that anyone outside of Israel should be concerned?

Use your own words, if you please.

While I'm not brainster, I'll take a crack at the question.

Frankly, I don't have any personal feeling one way or the other on the issue of Israel's continued existence in itself.

That said, I realize that any situation that leads to the end of said civilization will probably be preceded by a great deal of noise and fury emanating from and towards Israel. That would, in my mind, lead to destabilization of the region, high oil prices, massive casualties, endless CNN coverage hosted by that pompous Wolf Blitzer, and, who knows, maybe even an Elton John song about it all. In short, a generally bad day for all involved. Add to that the 100K+ American soldiers in the vicinity (members of my nation-team) that could be in harms way and it makes keeping Israel around seems like a prudent option.