What to do about all these people fleeing Libya, Syria, etc.?

[Charlie Wilkes]

ROME — European leaders were confronted on Monday with a humanitarian crisis in the Mediterranean, as estimates that as many as 900 migrants may have died off the Libyan coast this weekend prompted calls for a new approach to the surging number of refugees crossing from Africa and the Middle East.

Even as efforts continued to collect the bodies from the sinking off Libya late Saturday and early Sunday — only 28 survivors have been found — Italian rescue ships responded to new distress calls from other vessels. A second migrant ship crashed near the Greek island of Rhodes, underscoring the relentless flow of people fleeing poverty, persecution and war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/w...n-immigration-migrant-ship-capsizes.html?_r=0

IMO, they should be rescued, fed, and immediately repatriated to the blessed land of Allah from whence they came. Any other policy simply encourages more of them to make this desperate journey.

But, i'd like other opinions. Tell me why I am wrong.

 

[arthwollipot]

Because you're sending them back to the very thing they're fleeing from.

 

[fuelair]

Because you're sending them back to the very thing they're fleeing from.

Note that they are frequently fleeing into death. Likely a more certain one.

 

[angrysoba]

IMO, they should be rescued, fed, and immediately repatriated to the blessed land of Allah from whence they came. Any other policy simply encourages more of them to make this desperate journey.

But, i'd like other opinions. Tell me why I am wrong.

It's tough and I really don't know what the answer is.

It seems pretty clear that removing Gaddaffi and encouraging the removal of Assad, which came after removing Saddam Hussein and leading to a war which resulted in a refugee crisis of Iraqis in Syria has resulted in a lot of this trouble. There's nothing to be learnt from that, though, I imagine.

I wonder why you assume all of the refugees would be better off in "the blessed land of Allah", though, when many of them, particularly the Syrians could be Christian?

 

[MG1962]

underscoring the relentless flow of people fleeing poverty, persecution and war.[/I]

I highlighted the important part for you

 

[MG1962]

It seems pretty clear that removing Gaddaffi and encouraging the removal of Assad, which came after removing Saddam Hussein and leading to a war which resulted in a refugee crisis of Iraqis in Syria has resulted in a lot of this trouble. There's nothing to be learnt from that, though, I imagine.

6 of one half dozen of the other. Remove a despot you often end up with a power vacuum. That vacuum creates exactly the sort of problems we are seeing in the three examples you offered.

 

[angrysoba]

6 of one half dozen of the other. Remove a despot you often end up with a power vacuum. That vacuum creates exactly the sort of problems we are seeing in the three examples you offered.

Indeed. It's exactly the sort of thing I just said.

 

[MG1962]

Indeed. It's exactly the sort of thing I just said.

The lesson has definitely been learned. There were a number of commentators who predicted Iraq would go straight down the path it did with removal of Saddam. The problem is no one wants to pay attention to the lesson, unless it suits them

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It's tough and I really don't know what the answer is.

It seems pretty clear that removing Gaddaffi and encouraging the removal of Assad, which came after removing Saddam Hussein and leading to a war which resulted in a refugee crisis of Iraqis in Syria has resulted in a lot of this trouble. There's nothing to be learnt from that, though, I imagine.

I wonder why you assume all of the refugees would be better off in "the blessed land of Allah", though, when many of them, particularly the Syrians could be Christian?

They perhaps won't be better off. But we in the West will be better off if they are not allowed to come here.

I don't see that we have a solution to offer, whether through military intervention or humanitarian assistance. I think we should face that fact and seek to quarantine their mayhem, rather than treating it as a moral challenge we must meet on their behalf.

 

[Puppycow]

The lesson has definitely been learned. There were a number of commentators who predicted Iraq would go straight down the path it did with removal of Saddam. The problem is no one wants to pay attention to the lesson, unless it suits them

I'm not entirely sure it has.

 

[arthwollipot]

Ah, from the "screw 'em" school of foreign policy.

 

[Caper]

Where are they going when they get to Europe?

That boat that sank had 900 people on it (or close). How many boats make it that are not noticed? Or are they all noticed?

It is a very, very hard question. The west can absorb a million refugees.... But there is a billion behind them.

 

[McHrozni]

6 of one half dozen of the other. Remove a despot you often end up with a power vacuum. That vacuum creates exactly the sort of problems we are seeing in the three examples you offered.

The said vacuum was going to happen anyway. The people aren't fleeing a society that failed when the despot was removed. They're fleeing a society that failed under the despot, his fall only made the fall visible, that is all.

The best thing we could do for them, in theory, is sweatshops, China style. They would bring something useful (cheap labor), and in return they would be able to live reasonably free lives.

It's either that, or nation building - like what failed in Iraq. The West doesn't have the willpower for that. It might or might not have the resources, but it has other concerns as well. Plus such operations are routinely decried as colonialism a few years down the line, plus many actors are deeply committed to sabotaging such actions, so there is exactly zero motivation for it.

Modify the relevant laws and introduce sweatshops for migrants that will produce goods currently imported from east Asia. That's the best that can be done.

McHrozni

 

[Caper]

The other question I have is this. These people are paying thousands of dollars to make this journey. Either they have it saved or a relative in the west is pledging it for them. I am wondering this. Why can't they just fly to the west if they have that kind of money? Surely there is an airport in Nigeria and Nigerians are allowed to vacation to Italy..... No?

 

[Rum]

I don't think you quite realise what life is like in a third world country - especially one where the already eroded infrastructure has been further challenged by Western intervention followed by civil war and chaos.

 

[ceptimus]

The other question I have is this. These people are paying thousands of dollars to make this journey. Either they have it saved or a relative in the west is pledging it for them. I am wondering this. Why can't they just fly to the west if they have that kind of money? Surely there is an airport in Nigeria and Nigerians are allowed to vacation to Italy..... No?

Probably, a lot of them do enter Europe that way. They're not so immediately visible as people being rescued from sinking boats, so the politicians are more easily able to ignore them...

The ones on boats are perhaps afraid of flying or don't know how to buy the tickets and so on... Much more likely is that they don't have the required paperwork - passports, visas, identity cards that would allow them to navigate through an airport. The criminals taking their money to put them on old boats don't care whether they have passports or not.

 

[rjh01]

This is a major issue which is common in other parts of the world. For example refugees are attempting to get to Australia. Find a solution for one and a similar one could be used for the other.

 

[angrysoba]

Where are they going when they get to Europe?

That boat that sank had 900 people on it (or close). How many boats make it that are not noticed? Or are they all noticed?

It is a very, very hard question. The west can absorb a million refugees.... But there is a billion behind them.

Apparently the Italian Navy rescued 100,000 refugees on the seas, so how many others there were is likely to be much larger.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/italy-sea-mission-thousands-risk

 

[angrysoba]

The other question I have is this. These people are paying thousands of dollars to make this journey. Either they have it saved or a relative in the west is pledging it for them. I am wondering this. Why can't they just fly to the west if they have that kind of money? Surely there is an airport in Nigeria and Nigerians are allowed to vacation to Italy..... No?

As above I suppose it comes down to visas, paperwork and the logistics of getting on the plane from the airport, as well as getting to the airport.

 

[Caper]

Apparently the Italian Navy rescued 100,000 refugees on the seas, so how many others there were is likely to be much larger.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/italy-sea-mission-thousands-risk

So what is done with them when they are rescued?

This is a massive problem. I am sure almost all of these a good people, but amongst these there are some vile human beings, I read about one ship where some of the Muslims on board thought it was ok to throw the Christians over board..... and they are coming to live in Western countries. That's concerning.

When I see these stories told about individuals, I always want them to reach their destination and get the better life they wanted... But to think of just the sheer numbers off poor, unskilled, uneducated (which I'm sure make up a majority) the consequences scare me. I can see why the rise of anti-immigration parties has taken root in Europe.