buzz lightyear
Muse
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What standards can one expect as an applicant?
- Thread starter saizai
- Start date
You certainly refer to "go elsewhere", buzz lightyear, right?
After making numerous half-assed untestable claims, mastering the art of evasion and insulting the JREF and Mr. Randi personally, the reactions you get from other forum members certainly tell you what you have to expect. When even The Atheist refuses to "discuss" your "theories" with you - I've said it before - you've got a one-step-forward-three-steps-back situation going for you.
You had your chance and you blew it. Royally.
Forum members who wish to enlighten themselves about buzz lightyear's "claims", "theories" and "stuff", please follow this link, sit down and put all beverages out of reach.
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SPOILER ALERT
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Space Time Dents
Acid
Dragons
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buzz lightyear
Muse
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You are missing the point here Gzuz.
Poor old saizai thinks that he is involved with an "educational" organisation.
It is, as cuddles has pointed out, a "show", an illusionist's act of which we all are playing a part.
I'm cool with that.
So don't get so serious. And soon your little playmate, The Athiest, will be back and all will be well in Randi Land.
No, you are missing the point. The JREF is an educational organisation. It uses the challenge as one of its tools to educate people. The challenge is primarily a show, in that it aims to conduct short, to the point tests on people who claim very obvious abilities. This is still educational because many people believe in said abilities and showing how they are almost always frauds or delusional certainly educates people. What the JREF is not is a scientific research facility for undertaking long studies. Saizai does not have a problem because it is not educational, he has a problem because he is attempting to conduct academic research for a challenge that simply asks "Can you do something paranormal? Yes or no?". Both approachescan be useful, but they both have different places they should be done.
Klaymore
Critical Thinker
Indeed. I was shocked (even dubious) when Saizai said that JREF had accepted his application. This just seems like such a monumental undertaking, fraught with the possibility of fraud and slick with the pungent lubricant of untestability.
I admire Saizai's gumption in trying to come up with a testable phenomenon not based on his own abilities, but rather on a theory. However, I'd be shocked to see this actually get tested. That's not because it isn't a theory that deserves research (although it seems much such research has already been done and has yielded negative results), but because, as you say, JREF is not a research facility.
*shrug* They can change the challenge rules to state that it has to be some power of mine to qualify on the challenge. This, of course, would require backing out of the existing rules under which I applied.
Those, however, do not say anything about me doing something paranormal; only that I have to demonstrate something paranormal, which is a rather different thing.
There have been a handful of other applicants who take that approach, though of course I am the only one (that I know of) to do so quite so radically.
Also, even if I were to claim that I personally could do something paranormal like, say, heal the sick through remote intercessory prayer... but only in very small amounts (e.g. suppose the claim were a 1% improvement in HRQOL scores), then it'd still need my proposed sort of protocol to prove. The only difference between my challenge and that of someone who claimed such a thing, is that I happen to be recruiting a whole bunch of other people to do the praying rather than doing it all myself. (Which of course would be an odd definition of praying, since I'm not a theist; "thinking happy thoughts at them" perhaps?
)
And the application certainly does not say that the effect demonstrated has to be large, only that it has to be paranormal. In fact JREF has been fairly consistent about insisting that the applicant should be the one to decide how much they can do; the JREF's only involvement is to ensure that the method chosen to demonstrate the claim ensures it to be very very unlikely that they can do it by luck or fraud.
Those, however, do not say anything about me doing something paranormal; only that I have to demonstrate something paranormal, which is a rather different thing.
There have been a handful of other applicants who take that approach, though of course I am the only one (that I know of) to do so quite so radically.
Also, even if I were to claim that I personally could do something paranormal like, say, heal the sick through remote intercessory prayer... but only in very small amounts (e.g. suppose the claim were a 1% improvement in HRQOL scores), then it'd still need my proposed sort of protocol to prove. The only difference between my challenge and that of someone who claimed such a thing, is that I happen to be recruiting a whole bunch of other people to do the praying rather than doing it all myself. (Which of course would be an odd definition of praying, since I'm not a theist; "thinking happy thoughts at them" perhaps?
)And the application certainly does not say that the effect demonstrated has to be large, only that it has to be paranormal. In fact JREF has been fairly consistent about insisting that the applicant should be the one to decide how much they can do; the JREF's only involvement is to ensure that the method chosen to demonstrate the claim ensures it to be very very unlikely that they can do it by luck or fraud.
Exactly. They also don't say anything about "waiting around until you get your research in gear on the off-chance that you might be able to show something paranormal."
The JREF is an educational foundation not a research foundation. If you want research support, Templeton is in the book.
drk - "Research support" generally means money. I'm not asking for money.
No, but you are are asking for their time, trouble, and imprimatur. All of which are in short supply, and none of which are they obliged to give you for inappropriate projects.
And if you're not asking for money, why did you apply for the One Million Dollar Challenge?
buzz lightyear
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Me missing the point? Cuddles.
The above quote by you is the point.
To prove or disprove the presence of "parranormal" phenomena would take more than a " short to the point test".
If JREF claims to be an "educational" organisation, then they should have conducted research to establish that the "educating" that they are doing is based on facts.
At the moment their credibility is based on the same type of hearsay as spouted by many of the people they ridicule.
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strathmeyer
Master Poster
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You know what standards you can expect if you are an applicant? That if you have a paranormal ability that you can show to others, you'll receive a million dollars.
Klaymore
Critical Thinker
Correct, and I did not intend to imply otherwise. One might, in fact, succinctly state the relevant criterion thusly: "A paranormal claim is whatever the hell JREF says it is, since it's their challenge and their money."
I was simply surprised that JREF had accepted a claim the testing of which shall, I suspect, prove impracticable.
I am also dubious, Sai, that an individual of your obvious rhetorical alacrity would have misunderstood my meaning. Surely you are well cognizant that to feign misapprehension in order to obfuscate the debate over the testability of your claim would carry the bouquet of sophistry, if not its stench. I therefore apologize in advance for any perceived didacticism on my part.
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Klaymore
Critical Thinker
Great debate for another thread.
We still agree on this. Let us not speak on it again, unless you wish the last word, which I shall gladly grant you.
Ever heard of a bloke named Grice?
Of course:
"There once was a bloke named Grice,
who bent over to pick up some dice.
[RULE 8]
and said "Boy, that sure felt nice!"
There's also the other dude who did the "Peru Menstruation" t-shirt, or whatever...
(Nice vocabulary, though.
I hope so, I had to peek ahead in my Word of the Day Calander all the way to mid-July.
What you quoted was responding to the idea that I should only challenge with something of the, dare I say, 'mundane' sort of paranormal claim.
I'm not sure I misunderstood, but if I'm not sure whether I misunderstood then I probably did. Anyway, we agree that if the JREF accepted your application, then they accepted your application.
And finally, I will (belatedly) address the question posed by you at the outset of this thread:
Regarding JREF Personnel--In my opinion, applicants should be treated roughly the way I treated opposing attorneys when I was one, and the way I expected opposing attorneys to treat me. However, that is a generalization, and not a precise analogy.
I don't know all of the details of your claim. I know that JREF doesn't post claim correspondence anymore, but have you? Jeff seems to have acknowledged that his backlog of work and applications have stalled your application.
Regarding JREF Forum Members--Exhaltation. Opporbrium. Jaded, Cynical, Agenda-Driven Derailment.
We are not JREF; we are the JREF Forum. We are the skeptical, the zealous, the enlightened, the mad, the retarded, and the damned. We are bound together only by our ability (or, no doubt in many instances, the ability of our primary caregivers), to navigate us to this page. We are as mercurial and capricious as syphilitic Roman Emperors. By us you shall be alternately praised, lambasted, questioned, mocked, ignored, misquoted, seduced, and solicited to purchase discount Mexican Viagra.
Will these things happen to you because you are not one of us? No, they will happen to you because you are.
Little 10 Toes
Master Poster
Buzz, Buzz, Buzz. You are assuming again. The JREF's "education" is that basically, if I understand correctly, there is no "paranormal" whatever. You say that you can read the tag on my shirt while it's in the washing machine. The JREF says, "Ok, prove it". They don't care if you get CIA transmissions, have x-ray vision, or your spirit guide tells you. You attempt, but fail after everyone has agreed on the protocalls(sp). They have educated me that you cannot read the tag of my shirt in the washing machine. They have educated me based on the fact you said you could do something, you were tested and you failed.
What don't you understand?
No, it is the other way round.
The JREF calls some things paranormal, when in fact anything that occurs, whether or not the JREF, or anyone else for that matter, does or does not experience it, accept it, or even know about, is in fact perfectly natural.
Everything that exists is natural, whether or not certain individuals know about it. There is nothing beyond the natural or normal, which necessarily includes everything, including the things you do or cannot know about. This applies to all of us without exception whether we know about it or not.
It is just that not everyone realises or experiences the world in an identical manner, and some people take the view that what they do not or can not realise or experience does not and can not exist because they insist that if it did exist they would necessarily know about it because the world must be the way they see it and can not be otherwise.
But it turns out that this is not the way things are. It is hard for some of us to accept, but we just have to live with it. We all see the world in a similar but not identical manner. We are all a little different in the way we perceive what we are, who we are, and the way the world works.
This is the underlying reason the JREF MDC will not solve the question of the so-called paranormal. The challenge is well-meaning but ill-conceived.
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MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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Only in your personal definition of "natural", which encompasses "all that happens or might happen".
The definition of "natural" or "normal" (as opposed to paranormal) as used by the JREF and skeptic people here is "within the laws of nature".
When the JREF claims that there is nothing paranormal it implies that there is noting that defies the laws of nature.
Hans
[
Nothing can happen outside the laws of nature, whether you call it paranormal or whatever you like.
If it happens, it happens. If you want to call it paranormal, so be it.
The MDC will not solve it.
Originally Posted by maatorc View Post
Hans ;
[/QUOTE]
Nothing can happen outside the laws of nature, whether you call it paranormal or whatever you like.
If it happens, it happens. If you want to call it paranormal, so be it.
The MDC will not solve it.
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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I think you are being intentionally obtuse, now. I agree nothing can happen outside the laws of nature. The claims we label paranormal are claims of things happening outside the laws of nature.
It may be that some of the claims we label paranormal only seem so due to our limited understanding of the laws of nature, thus they are not really paranormal.
The definition still stands, though: Paranoramal means outside the laws of nature.
The JREF challenge is one way to find out if a claim is paranormal or not: If we deem it paranormal but the claimant passes the test, then it was not paranormal (and the claimants wins the million for showing that).
You can see the challenge as a test of the existence of an event. If it exists (it passes the test), then it exists and we must include it into the normal.
Hans
That is it exactly.
Not only is our understanding limited, it is variable, and subjective, and...., and..., and..., : Human mentality is everything.
It is definitely not explained by such trivialising as is exemplified by claims based on stage illusion and cold reading deception, which is virtually the foundation stone of the modern skeptical movement from the mid twentieth century.